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lovelydonk's picture
with players calling from BB too much (the right adjustment)

this is from a poker book:"Are there big calling stations in the blinds? If so, you should make your open raises a bit larger. They will be calling with a weaker range both before and after the flop. By raising more, you bloat the pot and allow yourself to get more value on every street. They’ll miss a lot of flops – everyone does – so you’ll take down larger pots with your continuation bets. They’ll also call too often on the turn and river those times they do flop something decent. The larger preflop pot will allow you to get more chips in with your strong hands on the turn and river. You’ll have a good chance to take his stack."many times I see player adjusting by min raising preflop. Also min raisin the weak hands and 3bettin the big ones makes ur hand a bit too transparent and become exploitable.we also know  those players will call u down if they connect with anything and are most of the time not easy to bluff.so the image and credibility we have is a lot less important vs them... So I think 3 bettin early on is good ... hopin to catch somethin early on in the match ... and if it do not flop anything durin the 10 first hand in SB, then min raisin to not get burned. (I don't think being more selective preflop brings a lot more ). well... the debate is on.... terence•

jackoneill's picture
Well, I just ran into a guy

Well, I just ran into a guy like that, he had some two-digit negative ROI with a few k total losses.He simply didn't fold anything, neither pre-flop, nor on the flop - and he kept hitting turns and rivers like a young good.I won a few buy-ins at the beginning of the session, where he called me down super light.  He snapcalled all of my flop value bets with any two cards, including no pair, no draw, no showdown value type hands - and when he hit a piece of that on the turn, he snapcalled another bet.My first adjustment was only betting value hands on the flop and increasing my bet size a lot - but he even called overbets of 3-5 times the pot on the flop and 2 times the pot on the turn with bottom pair or naked gutshots.  Unfortunately, he started to hit rivers like crazy - and often the board ran out dangerously, so I started to check back a lot on the river.Things were easy on dry boards - since he never folded, I also bet my weaker hands such as mid pairs, and in one hand, I even bet Queen high 3 streets for value on a double paired board, he had something like 7 high.Unfortunately, things didn't go that well on wet boards.  My first adjustment against that guy was betting really hard for value on these boards. Problem was, the board often got more and more ugly on future streets, and I often had no idea whether I could still bet the river for value or not - as he started to hit two pairs, backdoor draws and runner runner on me.  I lost a ton of hands where I opened 5x, bet pot on flop and turn - and he led into me huge when a flush draw arrived at the river, so I folded against this passive guy.So my next adjustment was getting even more chips in on earlier streets.  I started to overbet up to 3 times the pot on the flop and up to 2 times the pot on the turn - intentionally creating really weird stack sizes at the river, such as 350 behind with a pot of 2000.  And whenever I had a big overpair and there was a flush draw on the flop, I just overbet jammed and got snapcalled from stuff like a 7-high flush draw.I finally quit the guy after losing 6 buy-ins to him, he just ran super hot tonight.However, I think next time I see him, I'll use this same strategy - bet super big with my made hands and make the pot as big as possible on earlier streets.  I think especially overbetting huge at the flop with value hands is extremely profitable if the guy keeps calling these.


lovelydonk's picture
yea... it 's good to give

yea... it 's good to give extra value to ur hand if the vilain over pay with weak hands... but the question was: do u want to start building the pot preflop or not? 

DonNew's picture
We are talking about raising

We are talking about raising from the button and how large we should raise right? Im just confused when you write about 3betting but perhaps you mean 3x preflop raise from the button?Choosing between 2x and 3x preflop raises should depend on the villain but we can almost always 3x 45-75 bb deep imho.If villain just flats your preflop raise and gives up a lot after the flop when we c-bet we should make the preflop raise as large as possible. But most villains will either play back after the flop or start 3-betting.

jackoneill's picture
IMO, you shouldn't bloat the

IMO, you shouldn't bloat the pot too much pre-flop if your opponent calls overbets of two times the pot or more on the flop.If you make it 300 pre, there's 600 in the pot with 1200 left: betting 250 yields a pot of 1100 with 950 left.With a minraise, there's 80 in the pot.  Betting 150 yields a pot of 380 at the turn, another 450 makes it 1280 at the river with 800 left.Opening 3x makes it 120 at the flop, so a bet of 300 creates a pot of 720 at the turn and you can jam your 1140.If your opponent doesn't call such large overbets, then I think opening to 5x is better.  That creates a pot of 200 at the flop, so a PSB makes it 600 at the turn with 1200 behind, allowing you to get it in at the river. 


lovelydonk's picture
simple and good answers... tx

simple and good answers... tx guys

MrRunsGoood's picture
"Are there big calling

"Are there big calling stations in the blinds? If so, you should make your open raises a bit larger. They will be calling with a weaker range both before and after the flop. By raising more, you bloat the pot and allow yourself to get more value on every street. They’ll miss a lot of flops – everyone does – so you’ll take down larger pots with your continuation bets. They’ll also call too often on the turn and river those times they do flop something decent. The larger preflop pot will allow you to get more chips in with your strong hands on the turn and river. You’ll have a good chance to take his stack."I thought this was interesting. Before my adjustment was to raise smaller pre so I could control the pot more ip and it would make my double barrel/tripple barrel bluffs cheaper. If they call wide oop and fold to cbets often then think that's a pretty easy adjustment.

jackoneill's picture
Definitely.  This discussion

Definitely.  This discussion was more about opponents who do not fold at all.If they do fold to cbets or double/tripple barrels, then just minraise.  There are so many "reg fish" on the $55's who call super wide oop, never fold to almost any cbet, but play mostly fit-or-fold on later streets (and they're right with this strategy against "cbet and done" heros).Against these, I already minraise at 10/20 (usually I 3x until we get below 1000 chips eff, 15/30, or they start 3-3betting) to make it cheaper to fire multiple barrels.


RyPac13's picture
I agree with everything

I agree with everything except the following (and am not sure what the following really had to do with the advice previously in the book excerpt):"So I think 3 bettin early on is good ... hopin to catch somethin early on in the match ... and if it do not flop anything durin the 10 first hand in SB, then min raisin to not get burned. (I don't think being more selective preflop brings a lot more )."The bolded in particular is troubling to read if it is in a published poker book (a forum is different, it's for learning, so if you added that at the end or something like that it is quite fair to put your opinion in then open it up to thoughts and analysis, that's how people learn).3betting early to catch a hand does not strike me as reasoning that makes sense here.The earlier paragraphs make some sense.  You need to be careful about generalizing things too much, but in the situations where players call a lot and will not play aggressively postflop, a good player can take advantage of them by raising larger preflop.  However, you see too many situations where low stakes players raise large preflop, bet the flop, then either check down not knowing what to do or barrel away aggressively and get killed by a weak hand.You need more specific instances and examples to give good advice, generalizing with "raise larger preflop against loose players" is not correct in of itself, but can be in many situations.Care to share which book that was by chance?  You can PM me if you don't want to post here.