It's tough to give you a good answer to your question, as "out of the ordinary lines" are often a product of creative thinking coupled with unique opponents, aka opponents that don't fit a standard mold (I.E. tight weak players you just bet a lot, stations you just value bet hard, etc.).
It is very hard to balance good creative thinking with fancy play syndrome (FPS). Often times when good players have a good breakthrough and added confidence, they start to try to make too narrow of reads, often ignoring the basic and sometimes obvious correct decisions.
I get a lot of hands from players below and above my level of play that exemplify this.
Example:
Vs a loose player, a winning regular high stakes player makes it 3x bb with AJo, flop is 69J with two suits. Loose player leads for 2/3 pot and winning high stakes player makes a small 2x raise to "induce" a shove.
In reality, this player is loose, and ignoring stacks in this situation (I know, I know.. stacks are important but not so much here, just assume we're deepish) he's going to call a big raise with a lot of draws and weaker pairs. Making a very small raise just prices in flush draws, straight draws and combo draws. The play is still profitable with your hand, but you don't exactly have a medium range hand, you have a strong hand and you want max value, not just "some value."
The flop minraise over the lead is an example of narrow minded thought and trying to get too creative in a spot that should be a standard value sized raise, 3-4x his lead, dependent on stack sizes and if applicable previous loose tendencies.
The creativity is well intended, but misapplied.
In my experience, the most effective and valuable creativity comes from constant thinking and focus during and after games. Always question, in a meaningful way, what you are doing. Try to find reasonable explanations for your lines and if you're not satisfied, ask some peers, ask a coach, ask another winning poker player. Doing this in an objective way over and over leads to a thought process that considers every decisions from every angle and more often than not hits on the correct answer.
And yes, Skates videos are a great example of adapting and exploiting your opponent in every way possible. He really shows no signs of feeling like he has limitations to what he can do in any spot. It's probably a huge reason why he's the most common name brought up on this site from high stakes regulars when they tell me who they prefer not to play against.
People have differing strengths and assets and what you're describing I would consider it to be one of his stronger points.
Rypac thats a A+ reply right there..I think sometimes i overthink my opponents i have been playing 50s for a long time now because of reasons beyond my control..having to cashout for school..and i think i almot dont play abc enough against them
Thank you.
It happens a lot, I can't think of a single successful poker player that won't admit to playing too fancy or overthinking hands some times. It goes with the territory, just like bad bluffs, but you have to be thinking hard and bluffing constantly to experience overthinking fancy plays or bad bluffs, so it's a start. The key is to minimizing these negative aspects that come with improved play.
For what it's worth, I tend to under-think hands. I actively refuse to participate in making plays or assuming the player is thinking anywhere above level 0. I go into hands with the assumption that I can play it any way I like, no matter how likely it is that "you know, if he check-raises me as a bluff often enough, I shouldn't make this play" because half the time, they either don't know the proper exploitive line, don't execute the proper exploitive line, or are off playing with themselves and not even concerned with what the proper exploitive line is. This is why my absolute first goal in a lot of games is to find out if my opponent is vulnerable to a raise-atc-cbet-atc strategy or even a raise-cbet-2barrel-atc strategy because of his folding frequencies. On the other hand, this kind of under-thinking DOES obviously leave me extremely exploitable to a perceptive opponent, so maybe it's a bigger leak than I'll admit.
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Find places where he already has a tendency to bluff, like after you show weakness, and then play into those lines more often. bigsaje's Twitterbigsaje's Blog
I mean, that's one way you could respond to someone who doesn't bluff often. The other is just to bet all day, because if villain doesn't bluff, he can't have enough value hands to call barrels over and over again, and if villain raises, you know you can pitch. Moreover, you can do otherwise spewy things (think 2-barreling Q3 on QT9 boards) knowing that villain's not gonna make your life hell.
If I'm playing someone who can't bluff much, I pretty much just run over them.
I NORMALLY LOOK FOR SPOTS WHERE MY OPPENENT HAS SHOWN THE ABILITY TO FOLD AT LEAST SOME KIND OF HAND I WILL ON OCCASION TRIPLE BARREL AND TURN HANDS WITH SHOW DOWN VALUE IN TO A BLUFF BUT I WILL ONLY DO IT WHEN ONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPEN 1) WHEN SCARE CARDS COME THAT WOULD INCREASE THE STRENGTH OF MY RANGE. OR 2) I HAVE A TIMING READ THAT TELLS ME THAT THEY ARE CALLING THE FLOP WITH ETHER A DRAW OR WORSE THEN TOP PAIR I WILL BARREL ANY TWO CARDS WHEN THE SITUALTION IS RIGHT AS I BELIVE THAT THIS IS BETTER THAN SEMI BLUFFING WHEN YOUR OPPONENT IS NEVER FOLDING BECAUSE THERE ETHER A CALL BASE ALSO BE AWARE OF YOUR IMAGE AS IF IVE JUST THREE BET A STONG HAND AND IT GOT SHOWN IM MORE LIKLY TO THREE BET BLUFF SOON AFTER WHERE AS IF I WAS CAUGHT BLUFFING THE RIVER THE NEXT TIME IM MORE LIKLY TO VB THE RIVER LIGHTER THIS HOWEVER DEPENDS ON WHAT LEVEL YOUR OPPONENT IS ON.
It's tough to give you a good answer to your question, as "out of the ordinary lines" are often a product of creative thinking coupled with unique opponents, aka opponents that don't fit a standard mold (I.E. tight weak players you just bet a lot, stations you just value bet hard, etc.).
It is very hard to balance good creative thinking with fancy play syndrome (FPS). Often times when good players have a good breakthrough and added confidence, they start to try to make too narrow of reads, often ignoring the basic and sometimes obvious correct decisions.
I get a lot of hands from players below and above my level of play that exemplify this.
Example:
Vs a loose player, a winning regular high stakes player makes it 3x bb with AJo, flop is 69J with two suits. Loose player leads for 2/3 pot and winning high stakes player makes a small 2x raise to "induce" a shove.
In reality, this player is loose, and ignoring stacks in this situation (I know, I know.. stacks are important but not so much here, just assume we're deepish) he's going to call a big raise with a lot of draws and weaker pairs. Making a very small raise just prices in flush draws, straight draws and combo draws. The play is still profitable with your hand, but you don't exactly have a medium range hand, you have a strong hand and you want max value, not just "some value."
The flop minraise over the lead is an example of narrow minded thought and trying to get too creative in a spot that should be a standard value sized raise, 3-4x his lead, dependent on stack sizes and if applicable previous loose tendencies.
The creativity is well intended, but misapplied.
In my experience, the most effective and valuable creativity comes from constant thinking and focus during and after games. Always question, in a meaningful way, what you are doing. Try to find reasonable explanations for your lines and if you're not satisfied, ask some peers, ask a coach, ask another winning poker player. Doing this in an objective way over and over leads to a thought process that considers every decisions from every angle and more often than not hits on the correct answer.
And yes, Skates videos are a great example of adapting and exploiting your opponent in every way possible. He really shows no signs of feeling like he has limitations to what he can do in any spot. It's probably a huge reason why he's the most common name brought up on this site from high stakes regulars when they tell me who they prefer not to play against.
People have differing strengths and assets and what you're describing I would consider it to be one of his stronger points.
Rypac thats a A+ reply right there..I think sometimes i overthink my opponents i have been playing 50s for a long time now because of reasons beyond my control..having to cashout for school..and i think i almot dont play abc enough against them
Thank you.
It happens a lot, I can't think of a single successful poker player that won't admit to playing too fancy or overthinking hands some times. It goes with the territory, just like bad bluffs, but you have to be thinking hard and bluffing constantly to experience overthinking fancy plays or bad bluffs, so it's a start. The key is to minimizing these negative aspects that come with improved play.
For what it's worth, I tend to under-think hands. I actively refuse to participate in making plays or assuming the player is thinking anywhere above level 0. I go into hands with the assumption that I can play it any way I like, no matter how likely it is that "you know, if he check-raises me as a bluff often enough, I shouldn't make this play" because half the time, they either don't know the proper exploitive line, don't execute the proper exploitive line, or are off playing with themselves and not even concerned with what the proper exploitive line is. This is why my absolute first goal in a lot of games is to find out if my opponent is vulnerable to a raise-atc-cbet-atc strategy or even a raise-cbet-2barrel-atc strategy because of his folding frequencies. On the other hand, this kind of under-thinking DOES obviously leave me extremely exploitable to a perceptive opponent, so maybe it's a bigger leak than I'll admit.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I post daily strategy blogs here on husng.com. Click here to subscribe.
How do you guys go about opening up your opponents bluffing range...
Find places where he already has a tendency to bluff, like after you show weakness, and then play into those lines more often.
bigsaje's Twitter bigsaje's Blog
I mean, that's one way you could respond to someone who doesn't bluff often. The other is just to bet all day, because if villain doesn't bluff, he can't have enough value hands to call barrels over and over again, and if villain raises, you know you can pitch. Moreover, you can do otherwise spewy things (think 2-barreling Q3 on QT9 boards) knowing that villain's not gonna make your life hell.
If I'm playing someone who can't bluff much, I pretty much just run over them.
I NORMALLY LOOK FOR SPOTS WHERE MY OPPENENT HAS SHOWN THE ABILITY TO FOLD AT LEAST SOME KIND OF HAND I WILL ON OCCASION TRIPLE BARREL AND TURN HANDS WITH SHOW DOWN VALUE IN TO A BLUFF BUT I WILL ONLY DO IT WHEN ONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPEN 1) WHEN SCARE CARDS COME THAT WOULD INCREASE THE STRENGTH OF MY RANGE. OR 2) I HAVE A TIMING READ THAT TELLS ME THAT THEY ARE CALLING THE FLOP WITH ETHER A DRAW OR WORSE THEN TOP PAIR I WILL BARREL ANY TWO CARDS WHEN THE SITUALTION IS RIGHT AS I BELIVE THAT THIS IS BETTER THAN SEMI BLUFFING WHEN YOUR OPPONENT IS NEVER FOLDING BECAUSE THERE ETHER A CALL BASE ALSO BE AWARE OF YOUR IMAGE AS IF IVE JUST THREE BET A STONG HAND AND IT GOT SHOWN IM MORE LIKLY TO THREE BET BLUFF SOON AFTER WHERE AS IF I WAS CAUGHT BLUFFING THE RIVER THE NEXT TIME IM MORE LIKLY TO VB THE RIVER LIGHTER THIS HOWEVER DEPENDS ON WHAT LEVEL YOUR OPPONENT IS ON.