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Smartkid's picture
Folding AA postflop

Lately i have been runing really really bad, especially my hidden luck has been really terrible, running into cooler after cooler after cooler. I used to think these type of hands wre standard but after losing a lot of money lately i have started asking myself if we can find the fold button in there situations, or if they are coolers and this it is just a really bad period.
In both hands i have no info on opponent.

Poker Stars €27.60+€2.40 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players - View hand 440754
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BB: t1550 M = 51.67
Hero (BTN/SB): t1450 M = 48.33

Pre Flop: (t30) Hero is BTN/SB with A of hearts A of diamonds
Hero raises to t60, BB calls t40

Flop: (t120) 5 of diamonds 8 of diamonds 4 of hearts(2 players)
BB bets t140, Hero raises to t500, BB raises to t1490 all in, Hero calls t890 all in

Turn: (t2900) 2 of spades(2 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t2900) 7 of spades(2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: t2900

Poker Stars €27.60+€2.40 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players - View hand 440756
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN/SB): t1760 M = 58.67
BB: t1240 M = 41.33

Pre Flop: (t30) Hero is BTN/SB with A of spades A of hearts
Hero raises to t60, BB calls t40

Flop: (t120) Q of hearts 2 of diamonds 4 of spades(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t80, BB raises to t160, Hero raises to t400, BB raises to t1180 all in, Hero calls t780

Turn: (t2480) 3 of clubs(2 players - 1 is all in)

River: (t2480) 3 of spades(2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: t2480

I am fairly confident that the second hand is REALLY standard, but i have doubts about the first one.
EDIT : I erased results.

Looser Vogel's picture
Folding AA postflop

Personally I would strongly consider to fold AA in the first example. The main reason being that since you raise his donkbet he knows he has no fold-equity when he is shoving over you which rules out all but his strongest draws. So even though it is a very wet flop he most likely doesnt have a draw. I think most of the time Villain has a set or 76 here. The only draws that make sense here are 64 of diamonds, 96 and 97 of diamonds. Against all of those AA is a slight favourite at best. I guess im folding here almost always, but I really would like to hear one of the coaches opinion on that.

The problem with the second flop is that it is so dry, that actually only sets and strong toppairs make sense. Since he 4bet-shoves you a set is probably more likely than AQ or KQ. But I am not folding here I think. Add a certain percentage of bluffs Villain could make at this spot and a call should be profitable. In a vacuum and definitely at the 27$ level.

Looser Vogel's picture
Cmon guys, those are two

Cmon guys, those are two interesting hands! Any comment from one of the coaches?

Happy new year everybody!

Radeh's picture
Unless I had some strong

Unless I had some strong read that the villains in those 2 hands are super tight, I would never fold here...but I'm a station.

Hand #1: He might do that with any type of straight/flush draw, TPGK (K8), or an over pair. Imo his range is wide enough to be happy when shipping AA here.

Hand #2: Super dry flop, which limits his range a lot to TPGK and maybe 2 pair if he's loose enough to call with such hands preflop. Imo this is TP a lot, which makes me happy to ship it here.

Can't always win with AA ;)

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Looser Vogel's picture
In Hand #1 I don't think he

In Hand #1 I don't think he has an overpair often since he didn't reraise preflop which most people do with 99+. Also as stated above I don't think he has a random draw often since the semi-bluffs need fold equity to be +EV and there wasn't a ton of fold equity as Hero reraised Villain's donkbet. Of course reads could influence our decision but Hero didn't have any reads on the player so let's stick with that (now we know that Villain is loose enough to call oop with 84o ;-)).
In Hand #2 two pair are unlikly since the average player plays tighter oop and this excludes hands like Q4, Q2 and 42. Of course it is possible, just not very likely. So most of the time it is a set or a strong top pair. And let's keep in mind that he is shoving after we raised his checkraise! He shows strenght with his checkraise and Hero even reraises. Villain's shove is nothing but a killer hand most of the time here. But I am afraid I am too much of a station to fold my AA here...depending on the level you play this can be toppair often enough.

xSCWx's picture
Both of these look pretty

Both of these look pretty standard to me, but I wouldn't expect to be very far ahead of their range if at all. I think that by the time you have enough money in the pot to realize that they have a good hand you are already too far to consider folding.

Haian's picture
don't be lazy, neither is

don't be lazy, neither is your first hand, you do have SOME info.
In a nutshell I'd rather call hand two since your have position, the board is uber dry and you want him to continue bluffing/vbetting worse, he's not going to come over the top with air unless he is really crazy. The board can't get bad for either of you except for a K on the turn.
Hand1 is fine imo

jacksalive's picture
Whilst I agree second hand

Whilst I agree second hand is really standard. Could the first hand be played differently? Do we know what the overbet donk means? How about we call all way down to river, that way we get to lose less when we are crushed and find out what over overbet donks mean from this player, also given this board there are going to be a lot of turn and river cards that could slow down a flopped two pair or a set.

jackoneill's picture
Well, in hand 2 - I wouldn't

Well, in hand 2 - I wouldn't ever 3bet him unless I have reason to believe that he knows the Yeti Theorem.

Against a fish, I'd always flat this and then call down, allowing him to bluff off his stack with weaker hands - he may even convince himself that you don't have any Queen if you don't 3bet him here and keep betting with something like pocket 9's.

You're basically way ahead / way behind here and there aren't really that many weaker hands he can call you with.  Your 3bet most likely folds out everything but strong Queens wheres he might be willing to bluff off a lot more chips if you give him the chance.

Hand 1, well - if you raise here and he comes over the top, you're either up against a very strong draw that's even money against your hand, or he's already have you beat.

Though this may sound "revolutionary" (after all this "protecting your hand" kinda thing), what about taking him some of his equity by flatting and then shoving on a safe turn card ?

This flop donk is small enough compared to your remaining stack that you could easily fold to any turn bet if you don't like that card.  If you're paying off all his two pairs anyways, then I think you're in much better shape if you peel a card and shove if all his draws brick on the turn.

I wouldn't recommend this against a good opponent, though - as a good opponent knows that you'd never flat here with a strong hand, so he'd barrel a really wide range on the turn, putting you in a lot of tough spots.