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fuseo's picture
Common low stake villians

Hi Guys,

I have a few questions about common low stake villians....

A lot of players will never fold OOP untill effective stacks get small, maybe 20BB. Now thats good against tight players on the flop
but against  bluffy call stations it can become too exspenive to c-bet or double barrel.
These type of players like to donk bet the flop too, so pots can become very big so you have to be willing to make big decisions.

My question is against these type of player what would you do.

Would you maintain your opening range but lower your pre-flop raise?
Would you tighten your opening range and increase your pre-flop raise?
Would you simply limp in? (as these types of villians pretty much all limp in anyway  and most likely will let you)
Or would you just be happy to play big pots in position?

Also, donk betting.. it drives me crazy! I find it the most titlting thing, especially when the do those tiny blocking bets
with back door draws you just can't seem to shake them off of.

I just played a game that had 7 hands, 3 hands I played from the button and every time the guy donked betted and each time
I reraised his donk bets becuase I just think on average it is very weak sign.
First one I reriase his donk and he 3-bets me so I fold.  The next he does it again so I reraise him (with K top pair) and he 3-bets
me again, so I shove and he folds.
The next hand he donk bets again so reraise him (with K top pair)  this time he just calls, turn comes and he bets again (now I have
2 pair) so I shove he calls and I win - turns out he donked with a back-door straight-draw.

Does any one have problems with donk betting?  What is the best way to treat them? Do they get less common in higher stakes?
It seems in most cases the person has either missed, made bottom or middle pair or is trying to see a cheap turn for a straight
or flush draw. 
Does anyone here incorprate donk bets into their game?

Cheers

RyPac13's picture
It really depends on the

It really depends on the type of aggressively/bluffy/station you're playing postflop.

If you see a weakness, attack it.  For example, you'd adjust different vs a guy that calls just the flop really loosely, compared to a guy that will call on every street loose.  For the loose flop player, you can fire two barrels to push him off his weak hand range, for the guy that calls down super light, you'll just be value betting mostly, and value betting thinner than usual (firing 2-3 barrels with weaker pairs more often, and for value).

Generally, players won't call 3 streets super light, so if you notice them calling wide preflop and not folding on the flop, give two barrels a try.  Yes, you lose sometimes, but you win more than enough to make it correct.  When you lose the pot, you gain reads and can adjust more precisely and give yourself a good chance to win the match.  If you win, you may not have as much information, but two things are certain 1) You won the pot, so you have a lead and 2) They folded, you were the aggressor and they are likely more frustrated than they were when starting this match.  

RyPac13's picture
The donk bet is not always

The donk bet is not always weak at all.

Two types of common donk bettors come to mind that you don't want to raise as "weak" too often:

1) The guy that donk bets with his strong hands.  This is laughably exploitable, but you have to recognize it.  Their range vs cbets is very weak then, so when they check call the flop, you're often firing 2 or even 3 barrels, knowing they likely would've donked their stronger hands.  You can't do much except play your pot odds and implied odds vs these guys when they donk, call with odds that make sense and hands that can likely draw out on them, or call with stronger hands that have good showdown value.  Fold weaker garbage and don't bluff these leads, as they don't contain much fold equity.

2) The guy that donks with any piece.  This is actually fairly common too in the lower stakes.  Players will donk bet draws, weak pairs and sometimes stronger pairs.  Even if they check raise strong hands, when they check to you their range is still too weak, as their donk bets consist of a lot of the hands that hit flops.  If a player can only have a strong hand or a weak hand, you just cbet all day and probably check back most turns (since a call would mean they are strong, unless they CR their strength on the flop, in which case a call is likely a very very narrow range like a certain type of draw or pair, that you in turn play accordingly and likely fire the turn a lot at).

Vs these donk bets, you can take various lines with different hands.  You'll flat call more of your medium pairs probably, and value raise better pairs like top pairs and 2nd pairs because their range includes draws and all non top pair type hands.  You can fold your really poor draws unless they do something like min bet donk.  If you notice them folding to the "call flop, bet when they check turn" line, which happens more than you think and is really transparent and exploitable, then start to float weaker drawing type hands and fire them on the turn as a semi bluff with really good fold equity.

In the end, you really just want to think about exactly what villain is doing.  Players aren't similar enough to make a generalization such as "donk bets are weak," you'll spew too much against the two player types i just mentioned, and probably a few more that I did not.  It's great to classify players as tight, passive, aggressive, loose, and so on, but in reality a lot of these guys just show characteristics of each player type.  The surefire way to fully exploit somebody is to pay attention to exactly what they've done, and formulate a counter to that specific player.  Sometimes we as players take a too general approach to exploiting somebody.  We see they are loose and we make one adjustment, rather than paying attention to what spots they may deviate from loose play in, or what specific spots they are extremely loose in and how exactly they react on later streets with that loose range.  The more you pay attention to, the more information you have and the more likely you'll make a good and profitable decision against this player.

fuseo's picture
Thank for the reply

Thank for the reply Rypac.

Yeah I probably need to 2 and 3 barrel a bit more in the right spots.

No I defenitly agree a donk bet is not always weak, many like to donk top pair or good draws.
 It only seemed so in this player as he donked every time and usually they don't donk top pair unless there is atleast another card that can call. Turned out he was donking pretty much air.

So yeah I guess all you can do is figure out what they are donking with and go from there.

Do you or any other pro like to donk bet in the right situation? Could donk betting bottom 2 pair on a dry board be a good strategy every now and then?

Cheers

RyPac13's picture
If you're playing a player

If you're playing a player that recklessly raises donk bets but doesn't always cbet... that could be a good play.

Usually check raising bottom 2 on a dry board is better though, especially against a player that is aware that you'll be check raising dry boards quite often.

Donk betting is very opponent dependent in my experience.  Apply the same thought process to this as you do to adjusting in other areas and you should start to see some good spots to donk out.