For turbos I guess 77+, A9+, KJ+ is good.

I think you calling range is much wider tho! This is the optimal one I once calculated, Do correct me when I made a mistake somewhere...I'm a rookie myself tho!Shoves 100 % of time all hands 75BB: EV+ calling range:22+, Ax, Kx, Qxs, J5s+, T7s+, 89s+, Q5o, J7o, T8+, T9+ EQ with EV+ calling range: 57,8% equity 50BB EV+ calling range: 22+, Ax, Kx, Qxs, J4s+, T7s+,97s+, 89s+, Q4o, J7o, T8o+, T9o+ EQ with EV calling range: 57,5% equity   25BB EV+ calling range: 22+, Ax, Kx, Qxs, J3s+, T6s+,97s+, 89s+, Q3o, J7o, T8o+, 98o+ EQ with EV calling range: 57,1

what is the SAD part about having 57% equity in the first 10 hands?!?! I don't really see it... i think its a huge edge and highly profitable!!+ these guys are usually very happy to rematch... in other words... if you approach one you play 10 games in 15 minutes with a winrate of +- 57%..... That is not even SAD that is paradise! Finally this is 51% of you range.... these hands pop up on average 1/2 times so on average you will lose 1SB or 1BB while waiting for a hand in that range... 

one word: GAAAMBLLLLLEEEEE

im playing one as we speak.. its so sick lol

Being a 57%/43% is an 11.5% ROI...not too shabby if the game will only last a dozen hands!

Aha, the old brick-and-mortar rates...well, then, it's still over 9.5% ROI and not too bad for an ultra-short game.I recall an article from several years back, around the time NLHE was becoming very popular that said that many casinos in one part of the world (I don't remember where!) would have a 10% unlimited rake on NL games. Let's just hope it doesn't come to that!

lol i just fold everything and snap 99+ even AK i fold etc, not gonna settle for 60/40 if someone wants to give me free money  

well i play deepstacks so i can fold ALOT since we start 150 bbs deepfor reg speeds its obv diff

well we were talking about, regspeed: 75BB, turbos 50BB and 25BB STssecondly, your strategy in regspeed has as result that villain is shoving everyhand EV+ => not giving away free money...  "well i play deepstacks so i can fold ALOT since we start 150 bbs deepfor reg speeds its obv diff"Do explain me please how the math changes for deepstack: cEV for AA-99: 50cEV for :22+, Ax, Kx, Qxs, J5s+, T7s+, 89s+, Q5o, J7o, T8+, T9+: 250=> no difference in optimal calling range for reg speed or deepstack which is quite common sense in my oppinion but again: i might be missing something big here!!! THE DIFFERENCE:IF your calling range is AA-99 in a reg speed for 75BB=> villain has a cEV of +5 for open shoving 100%if your calling range is AA-99 in a deepstack game for 150BB => villain has a cEV of -20 for open shoving 100%So at least when deep, vilain is loosing some chips... Even if my numbers or ranges are not correct I think that even when deepstacked, you shouldnt think you have to play to tight vs these guys.  Maximizing your winrate is one thing, but playing a little smaller edge when you are forced too is much better then letting a lot of value go... The reg speed example illustrates even that these guys arent giving money away when openshoving 100% vs AA-99 they are even winning some chips with it... 

im no god or anything, and am most likely mistaken here :)so u are  prolly not missing anything, im also not trying to say YOU SHOULD ONLY CALL 99+ i just wanted to state that up till now, thats what i have been doing, i do find the math behind it fascinating, but i dont understand how you calc it one thing i would like to correct u on tho is : 'what is the SAD part about having 57% equity in the first 10 hands?!?! ' imo u need at least 5+ hands before saying that he shoves ATCi dont often see these guys anymore, i mean ldo, if they want to just openshove ATC then they would go to STs rather then deeps or anything like that also im more then well aware that 99+ isnt optimal at all, i just do this, because if i call with a hand like T7s and he shows JTo i fuckin hate life and feel like i just burned 105$ (ofc i know this is not the case and it is optimal, i just call with 99+ because idk it feels better to me, + u can also wait a while for a hand so its not bad imo, also somehow the shorter i get the wider i make my range, but totally not optimal or anything lol, i know its prolly not making much sense and i have a pretty big leak vs open shovers prolly, i agree but still, it has worked -okay- for me so far and it makes it more bearable then losing with T7s or J5s )i didnt mean to say that my way was more optimal, i just wanted to say: hey this is what i do, this are my 2cents and frankly, it would take about 70 ish hands before he gets me down to 2K chips, then i get 99+ and that basically crushes his range so lets assume i win here, which i do like 80% of the time and then when im up to 4K again blinds get up ofc, but then i have a 2-1 chip lead and can relax more again, i mean in 70 hands time u deffo get a 99+ hand at least once right? and then i just repeat, and mostly win, ofc i have to win 2 flips but inreality im most of the time 75% fav, so it cant be that bad can it be?     

imo u are spot on, and are making very good posts i jus tthink that ur post might be in theorectial +maxEV longterm, and my strat is just +EV as well since i win over 60% of games vs openshovers, too badi cant look through hem and filter for "vs openshovers" but when being 150 bbs deep, i deffo think calling vs openshovers with 22 and T7s etc, is just 0EV and folding a few more hands to get like 55+ is maxEV however'99+ has 78% equity vs ATC, so if you need 2 shoves to win you wil win 60% of the time vs 57% in the optimal range ' so basically i win 60% of the games, i just take longer to do so vs open shovers? i think that doesnt bother me half as mcuh as getting tilted the fuck out of my mind, when i snap T7s to see a hand that has me crushed, and when i mahead with T7s its not even that far ahaed, i think ur calling range is fine imo, but i do believe that u can leave some hands out to get it more hmm, relaxing? giving more piece of mind? im not sure about it tho, i was neck deep into all this stuff when i grinded MTT sngs, now i barely use any thinking like this, and if my strat wins 60% of the time, but ur optimal calling range wins 57% of the time, doesnt that make mine equally good? except for the fact that we wait longer and therefor decrease our hourly with my strategy+ also noteworthy, cant forget the times u get 99+ in the first 10 hands or so, and then for end game just apply chubukov en nash equilibriums so i dont have to win 2 double ups everytime, and if i win the first (but have been blinded down abit) i can loose one and then win two again, because we are deepstackd so i dont think ur math saying that i win 60% of my games vs openshovers is correcti win 60% of my games vs openshovers if i have to win 2 times because it takes a while before i get a good handi win 78% of games vs openshovers if i get a good hand immediately (in my first 10 hands)and i win some games if i win the first after being blinded down and then if i lose one, i can still make a comeback, and still win itso i think my avg win rate vs open shovers with my strat should be somewhere areound 65%+ of the time,however, i can fold alot, i grind deepstacks for a living i want it to be clearly noted in reg speeds i just do 55+ and i turbos i just gamboooool hard :d also when 75 bbs deep you stated somewhere that 22 is +EV to call with, why is that? u are barely ahead vs most, and crushed vs all other pocket pairs? hands like TJs evenhave an edge on u i think u might be like 51% vs atc, with 22 but damn, i hate taking an opportunity like that, i gotta pay rake jo, 51% edge im not playing for, im constantly looking for maximum edge not perfect adjusted calling range, but i want to make the most money possible, with the least variance possibleand that is why this is what i do, however i fully agree that ur strat has more cEV and takes into consideration the hands u have to fold and the blinds u lose much more then i do, but at the other hand if i fold 100 hands in a row im down to 1.5K and lookng for my first double up, but really, how can i not find 99+ in 100 hands time? and then finish it off with nash calling range and adjust it a lil bit wider for optimal end game strats, just hate calling of 150 bbs with marginal holdings, even sounds like a leak to me, even if u do know ur 60% vs his range, i mean, its good i guess, but i just hate my life so badly, if im dominated or dont win, and i think for me personally keeping a healthy mind and good focus throughout every game i play is much more important then being optimal in one single event, that hardly occurs for me so no my post wasnt a joke, and app i win 60% of games or more vs openshovers, so no, i wastn joking and this is my 2 cents, what i do , and why i do it, i dont advise it to anyone else, but just wanted to give my 2 cents on it, i will stop trolling ur topic now with strat posts forgive me for disagreeing / the agrumenting take care hope u all run like god 

it is ok mate!!  This is a very simplified solution with very simplified examples...Im a math noob, so i might be next to the point but... i didnt mention it, but leaving the bottom of your range out is ok in my oppinion.  Nothing wrong with not taking some small edges... I'm closing here because I don't have more to offer a simplified solution for a 100% pusher...grtz! J.

yeah, basically mine is too tight, but imo ur is too lose to maintain a good mindset/be happy about it altho some people will be happy with it, i find it stressfull and i basically let teh btm of my range out, untill i found it was more enojyable and still profitable and for me what i opsted above works, but im fairly sure ur is more correct tho :d btw, how did u do the cEV calcs? im curious about that, i can do all the EQ and chance calc myself, like win 78% of his range but need 2 double ups is just 0.78 x0.78 = 0.6081 = 60% of the games, but how did u do the cEV ? like the -5 and +20 etc im just wamboozled by it :p

As I said im a math noob, I estimated it like this:EVtotal= EVcall-EVfoldEVcall=0,514*[(0,57*1520)+(0,43*-1480)]EVfold=0,486*20, the times we loose the blindswith 0,514: total calling range, 0,57 our estimated equity, 1520 the amount we win, 1480 amount we lose. I don't know how to handle complex situations so... For vilain to open shove profitable vs 99+ vilain need 96% fold equity equity: pot(Pfol)+(1-Pfold)[(EQcalled*amount win from vilain)+((1-EQcalled)*-amount loose)]30P+836,6P=836,6P>836,6/866,6=96%99+ is only 2,7% of hands you play.. so vilain shoves slighly EV+ here This is simplified for sitting in BB, i have no clue how to calculate a strategy for sitting in small blind where you can either limp/call, fold, or raise/fold... or even limp/fold when vilains start to have tendencies to check behind or shove! grtz!J.

yeah me neither, ,will brush up on my poker maths around the new year i used to know all this stuff but got lazy somewhere along the way, even the elite do not neglect the basics is something i keep telling myself but damn lol, cant believe i cant remember this stuff anymore eitherway thx for ur quick response :D

Interesting discussion.  I played a game a few days ago.  First hand shoved and I called with 88 and I think I would have folded with 77.  He did it with 98o.Could you guys filter your hem and see what villains have been shoving with.  I am thinking you should base ev calcs vs a 75% shoving range not 100%.  Assuming these guys are crazy not stupid.

If you want 57% equity versus 100% shover I get a range of: 44+  A2s+  K7s+  Q9s+  JTsA5o+  K9o+  QTo+ Not sure why our ranges are different? MW

well you can obv figure out diff ranges that will give u the same amount of equity for example (this is just educated guessing not correct ranges, use pokerstove to figure it out further if u dont get my example but...) if i make my range like AA QQ KK JJ TT  (sick good monster like hands HU) and then add in complete crap like 27 37 48 57  57 (all offsuit) i might end up being around 60% as wellvs ATC, point being u can change the range a bit and still have the same amount of equity with range vs range but... if u look at jaymzz's range , u see he included for example 22 which actually only has 50% equity vs ATC (+-) and i dont mean ur always flipping, i mean, u are flipping the biggest part of the time, behind vs JTs etc, and behind vs any other pocket pair, so i obv never call vs an open shover with 22 altho it is not BAD i still am not convinced it is +EV and its far from maxEV to call with 22 vs an openshover i hope my point gets across cliffs:1) Diff ranges can give same equity vs a certain range (atc in this example) like AA gives u about the same equity vs a range of 22-TT just like KK and QQ and JJ have the same equity vs this 22-TT range, in the same way, ranges vs ranges, where rangeX vs RangeY(being atc) u can fluctuate RangeX into RangeZ and still have the same equity with either of these ranges vs RangeY2) dont call here with 22 imo hope my posts makes sense, Jts

@meatwad: The hands you give are hands that all perform with least 57% equity vs. a random hand. However, when considered as a range of hands, the hands you give result in over 62.7% equity.

@qattack i deffo agree with what you said, and i just figured to post here, that that is also the main reason i like MW's calling range better then the one that included 22 and T7S