When 16 - 25bb deep, what do you think should be flat calling range OOP vs minraise? Basically a sup turbo - 500 stack, 10/20 blinds, SB opens to 40.Im not concerned what hands should we 3 bet VS flat, but the question is what hands are still profitable to flat OOP - bottom of the range.I see many coaches here advocate fairly tight range, cutoff being approximately K8s, K9o, Q9o, Q8s, J8s, J9o, 98o, 87s. That would mean folding about 60-65% of hands preflop to a minraise.I see a number of successfull players play 70 - 80% hands OOP preflop VS a minraise at these stack sizes and they claim it is correct play.Other question - how should our flatting range change when 11-15 bb deep? Should we call minraises more / less?It would be interesting to know what coaches here think about flatting ranges OOP at these stack sizes.
Interesting question! Can i add an additional question to your post?how does player type: TAG vs very LAG changes these rangeshow do you estimate your edge needed to flat certain ranges within these blind levels profitable
Flatting anything less than the range you listed makes it hard for you to play postflop against someone who is cbetting a decent amount. If a guy is minraising 100% but is easy to play against preflop then flatting a much wider range can be profitable. If a guy in minraising only 30% and hard to play against post then obviously flatting some of the hands listed wont be profitable. You basically just have to decide what your opponent's minraising range is and also how well he plays post.Also when 11-15 bb's deep im almost never flatting, only jamming or folding just to make life easier.
Pumpinator, ur right, I forgot to mention this in the question - lets assume villain minraises 65% of hands form the button. This is a reasonable amount to consider for this debate I would say and pretty common too for many people. Also, let us say villain plays 'average' postflop - no maniac, no nit.. (cbets flop e.g. 70%). I dont think it is 'easy to play postflop' against anyone when out of position, even with stronger range OOP than button openers range.For these characteristics, do you still think that flatting anything weaker than listed range would be bad? I dont see a problem with villain cbeting a lot as well with this weaker calling range, we can adjust and chk raise flop wider, calling down lighter (depending on how much he barrels) etc. I dont necessarily think this forces us to fold weaker hands pre when we have good odds.I see your arguments, this is what is generally 'taught'. I just find it hard to argue with the fact successful players do call hands as Q3o, J5o, T6o and am trying to think about it open minded.I also understand only jamming or folding 11-15bbs deep, but am trying to get beyond 'make life easier argument' just because somebody says so. Is it really the most profitable? I have never seen any math behind it, and I dont think it can be calculated easily.I think this is the subject that has not been discussed too much in general.
1>I thought that Mersenneary gave answers about that ( the calling rangs <12bb deep and even if it's do exist ever...) on his great vid=dabout the BB ENDGAME PLAY.so what?2> about the 1rst point (the calling range-say>15-25bbdeep) your range seems really NIT,man except ir you add some 3bet range at the bottom of that range and even below thatone...It's clear a sb player can explot you too easily if you fold >50% to his minraises,hu?In fact, i strongly feel your calling range is ok for a STD turbogame 50 or even 75BB deep...
1> I did not ask about calling ranges vs minraise <12 bb deep. I asked mainly 15-25 bb deep, with additional question being 11-15bb deep.2> Im not saying it is my range, more I feel that is the range I see guys playing s turbos here (coaches) from the videos. That is why I wanted to discuss, whether it is good or not. At least cog said something along these lines in one of his earlier sup turbo vids I think.I do not consider adding bottom of that range in 3beting range and 3bet garbage this short, this I think is bad (either 3bet / folding, or 3bet shoving garbage this deep). I considered flat calling preflop only of these trashy hands.It is clear that that SB player is automatically profiting on his 2x opens when BB is folding >50%, but I dont expect to be profitable from the BB against a player as good as me. Question is, what is less - EV in SB (or more + EV against weaker opponents if I can play SB profitably against them). Flatting, or folding trashy hands pre (Q5o, J3s, T6o..)?So what flat calling range preflop do you recommend?
Ok...i'm not near as good as the instructors around here to argue with you, of course...But, i'm Very interested in that subject too...i just felt the range you gave is way too tight and too exploitable, that's all. I dont advocate to play any garbage OOP ,but i suppose i would add some 10-8o/10-7o,9-8o,9-7/6o,7-6>> R8-R5 hands with 3 betting some as bluff for balancing,also D7oo and many more suites hands like 65s,85s,75s,64s and more suited D and V also...well something like 50 to 60% of all hands (depends of opponent) with balancing 3 betting /STD X2.5 or shove (sometimes ARou 99, sometimes 87s/109s and call with more 40% equity+) and some bare 3bettind bluff/fold...Sorry for bad english ( i'm a french guy..)<waiting to the advices of the superturbos specialists too...