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bonafontz's picture
Pot Odds + Question about HUD

Hey people,Here is a little about me, you can go right to the question in bold if you are not interested.I am fairly new here. Signed up for the standard membership and started to watch the videos. I am a recreational player, almost break-even; -8$ in 581 games (fairly small sample but still) at the 3$ stake on average. I played mostly 9-18SNG and bit of HUSNG. Not so long ago, I decided to take a more serious approach on poker (and focus on HUSNG) since I enjoy it a lot even if I don't know what I am doing. I went to FT responsable gaming options and locked my account for a couple of months. I want to master the basics before giving it another try and I know it takes time. What I mean by that is when I make a move, I want to know why and not just because i feel like it. I don't want to gamble and would rather play a game of skills and decisions. I want to learn how to put villains in categories and act accordingly and so on. I know the basics (cbet, position, board texture) but I am aware that it's not good enough to be successful.So here is my question: I don't know anything about pot odds. I just started to take a look at them and was wondering something. Are the pot odds that important in HUSNG or you should play a game of reads most of the time? Example: I have a flush draw on the flop. My opponent bet and I have the pot odds to call. Is it always optimal to call the flop if we thing we are winning if we hit? What about if we think there is a fair chance that villain hold a better flush draw? How sure should we be (that we are beaten) not to call with our flush draw. Is there a way to integrate those odds into the equation?If this does not make any sense, just tell me.Second question: I know how the effective stack is important in HU and I was wondering if there was any tracker that could display the effective stack in term of big blinds. Like a little tracker that would display this beside each player. Also, since it is real time information, I heard that it could be againts FT policy and that it would be hard to process anyway. Is there any useful information on this subject? I am aware that this is not really hard to calculate. However, I would still rather concentrate on other decisions and having the number of blinds all the time in my screen would help a lot.ThanksMR 

qattack's picture
Hi bonafontz, and welcome to

Hi bonafontz, and welcome to husng.com...You've found the best place for learning HUSNGs! No, I'm not affiliated with site, only a member. I've been playing for 14 years for most of my income and I am now making the transition to HUSNGs and this site is great.Your question about draws: both pot odds and implied are extremely important. After you figure out what type of villain you are dealing with, the pot odds and effective will sway your calling/folding decision. For example, if a villain will never (rarely) pay you off wihen you hit your flush draw, you need better pot odds to call.Pot odds are essential to any form of poker, but fortuneately can be easily learned. There are no videos pertaining to that subject here, but I think I read about the possibility of a future video dealing with that.As for displaying effective stacks...Holdem Manager has a stat that does this, and Table Ninja has the capability as well.

AJG's picture
Yeah as for displaying

Yeah as for displaying effective stacks in BB, just use the 'Stack in BB' stat under 'misc' in HEM, and take the smaller of the 2... (or learn to divide in your head, or have a calculator handy, either sofware or handheld - but estimating effective BBs is pretty easy once you get used to it) - Also you often dont need an exact, to 1/10th of a BB, number - its good enough to say "about 15BB" or whatever.I think the example you gave (flush draw and getting the pot odds to call), simply indicates those times where folding is incorrect. So you can 'trim' that bracnch from the decision tree. In other words, if you are getting the right pot odds to call, folding is never (rarely) correct. Thats not to say flatting is the best line either, just that you shouldnt fold. Sometimes its best to flat, sometimes to raise. If you have more draws than just the flush (which is common although ppl often ignore them in favour of the flush - "blinded by the flush" I like to call it ;-) ), for example you have AcTc on an 9c6d2c flop, you also have 6 more outs to top pair (& a b/d str8), raising might be the better play (Im not saying it def is, just it might be). But one 'general' guideline can be applied, is that strong draws (12 or more outs) often benefit from more money being put in the pot early (on the flop) than a made hand will. If you have a flush draw with overcards, and you flat your opponent's flop bet, what are you going to do when the turn completely misses you? at certain stack size, you might find the best play is to simply shove your draw, as it is +EV combining fold equity with your pot equity when called. Another good example is AcTc on a flop of KcTd3c flop. Even against a K you have 48% pot equity, and a shove here is a highly profitable play (obv not at 200BB, but hopefully you get the idea)As to how to figure the odds of opponent holding a higher flush draw? well we can base this on our highest card. As an example, suppose we hold the K (and the A is not on the board) we could say that the chances of our opponent having a higher flush draw are ~ 2% (1 card in 52 beats us).When hand reading, one thing that radically changed my thinking on this and increased my ability to do it well (although i still have a very long way to go) is thinking in terms of hand combinations. for example there are 1326 total combinations of 2 card hands. There are 16 combinations of AK, 4 of AKs and 6 of AA. So when you start to think like this, ie my opponents range is {88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AQo+} (~top 10%), then that consists of 98 combos. 16 of which are suited Aces. So thats 16/98 chance he holds a suited ace. Then the flop shows 2 small clubs (and we have 2), now there is only 4 combos of AcXc (where X >= T). If we hold the K, then there are only 3 combos left. 3 combos is rather unlikely - as a rough guide, in 'Let there be Range' by Cole South and Tri Nyugen, they advocate being able to rep atleast 10 combos when bluffing (albeit that is not a HU book), as anything else is simply too unlikely to be credible. The same can be applied here: 3 combos that give opponent a better flush is very unlikely he holds one of them. Here its about 3% of his range. 

AJG's picture
Sorry, i reread your OP and

Sorry, i reread your OP and realized you said you dont really understand pot odds yet.In what you describe, lets say you hold the nut flush draw (so we dont worry about being beaten by a better flush), YES it is always correct to call if you are getting immediate pot odds to do so. What you are referring to about the possibility of a higher flush, is called 'Reverse implied odds' - look around for some articels on that. Its basically those times that you hit your hand but still lose (as is possible when not drawng to nut hands) either to a higher draw, or your opponent out redraws you - ie when you turn your flush, but they river a full house/quads.Calling with the right pot odds is not always dependant on opponent type, as when you hit you are already profiting from the pot already in the middle. So, if you have a flush draw on the flop (~36% chance of completing - needs ~ 2:1 to break even) and your opponent bets 30 into a 70 pot (so you are getting ~ 3:1 on a call) you should call, even if you know your opponent will fold if the flush completes.Think of it this way, if we run this hand 100 times you will hit your flush about 36 times. So, you will win 3600 chips overall, while losing about 1920 chips. Clearly you can see that you are 1080 chips in front. (assuming no more betting after the flop). But also (when we do complete our flush) sometimes it is not the turn card that does so. When this happens, you need to reevaluate if/when your opponent bets again. Now you have ~20% chance of hitting your flush, so you need atleast 4:1 pot odds to make the call immediately profitable. This is where opponent type comes into play. If your opponent barrels alot of turns, you will need higher pot odds to make the flop call (unlikely HU), but if your opponent cbets alot and checks the turn when you call, you need less as you are more likely to see a river.Obviously it is better when they dont fold when the flush completes, and anything you win after you hit is referred to as 'implied odds'. Depending on the game and where the betting is up to (preflop/flop etc) many players simply use 'rule of thumb' figures like 10x preflop, meaning if you are considering calling a raise with a small pair to set mine (only), you want opponent to have 10x the amount you need to call still left in front of them, to be getting the right 'implied odds' to make the call. This might need to be even more on the flop (as chances of hitting decrease)