Hi,The last couple of weeks, it happened to me several times that I played some good Regular with decent SS stats (like 5% ROI over a decent sample size and $10k winnings), and he took some extremely weird lines against me. This same thing happened with multiple opponents of this type that I haven't seen before.They started the match playing decently, but then all of a sudden did some very weird things like:
- Opening > 10x after they were minraising before
- 3-bet jamming @ 10/20 with over 50 bb effective stacks
- Openjammed with over 50 bb effective stacks
- Flat my open, then donked into me for 2-3 times pot-size
Interestingly, this only happened in my first match against them; they never did it again after I accepted a rematch (thinking they might be drunk / tiltet).What the hell does this mean ? As I learned it, all these moves are very much -EV, so if they do that first match against an unknown, they either have a huge leak in their game or they're very confident that they can level / exploit me by doing that.How much of an edge do you give up by randomly openshoving trash even stacks at 10/20 ? If you do that let's say 3-5 times per game, how much does it hurt your ROI ? I simply can't believe that you can still have a > 7% ROI if you do that.So what are they trying to accomplish ? Making me call too light ? Making me call too light when they do a normal 3bet later ?Since they only do that every once in a while - maybe every 20-30 hands - they could in theory be doing it with their monsters. But that'd mean that both their flatting range and their normal 3betting range are weak.So if I flat one of their normal 3bets, go broke on a Q-high and see them have AK or KK .... ?It's completely impossible to get any decent reads about this since they always seem to stop doing it after the first match.Do they intentionally throw away a buy-in to level me into accepting rematches ?Jack
It depends on what you're open shoving. If it's 99 or something, that's probably not hurting your overall ROI a ton, though it's almost certainly not the best play during that hand.Same goes for the over shoves on 3bets, people do that with hands like AQ or AK sometimes, and it's still +EV, you just sacrifice some EV by using such a large 3bet size.I don't think they are intentionally throwing away a buyin. A lot of guys just don't know how to play certain hands in certain spots (AK in a 3bet pot) and it's just a mental leak. You could even say them trying to play it in a more overall +EV way could cost them money, since they don't have that experience, skill or confidence in making AK a smaller 3bet, as an example, but in reality they could probably learn to play it more +EV than an over 3bet shove very quickly, if not right away.The extent that you mention this stuff happening is strange to me though. Open shoving 50+bb deep isn't something I see from big winners almost ever, let alone during your first matches vs multiple players. Over 3bet shoving and open shoving at 15-30bb happens (and usually with very specific defined ranges), but open shoving at 50bb is something I've almost always only seen from fish or breakeven range players.
btw rypac, if ur 30 bbs deep, and a guy has been opening btns about 75% of the time, and u have 44 and he makes it 2.5x like he always does , is overshoving the best play then?
Seems very likely so off the top of my head. It's certainly profitable, but I'd also believe it's the most profitable line, barring any extreme postflop advantages that you might have that would justify playing 44, let alone ATC OOP (extreme reads where you can steal without risk a high % of the time, as in a player that advertises heavily when he has something real and always folds when he doesn't have it).
aight thx, i saw why u couldnt flat(w/o insane post flop edge), and why u cant really 3bet(bluff?) so only thing left to do is shove, since folding is also not good vs his range was just wondering if shoving over it would be maxEV thx ,D
Hmm, it really doesn't make any sense for them to openshove over 50 bb deep. Maybe I did play them before and simply don't remember anymore ? Could even be some very long time ago, and they have some note about me calling too light. I should really take more notes about my opponents myself.In the past, I usually called such deep openshoves with something like 88+ / AJs+ / AQo, assuming that the opponent is a fish since no good regular would ever do that. Should I tighten up and only call something like JJ+ / AK ?Regarding the huge 3bet-shoves - if they really do that with premiums, then their flatting / normal-sized 3betting ranges should be weaker - unless they're trying to level me into thinking that.
Don't over think it, it's not likely there is leveling or deep thinking going on when they over shove deep. Even if they get away with some weaker hands, it's hardly creating a super profitable environment for them.Do the math for a tightish range vs 72o 3bet shoving 60bb deep and see what you come up with.I wouldn't tighten up too much, I mean you see 22+ do the over 3bet shoving stuff as well, AK is just a common example I've seen fairly big winning players talk about previously.