Full Tilt - $20+$0.45HeadsUp|10/20 NL - Holdem - 2 playersHand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.comHero (BB): 600.00SB: 400.00SB posts SB 10.00, Hero posts BB 20.00Pre Flop: (30.00) Hero has 8c KdSB raises to 40.00, Hero calls 20.00Flop: (80.00, 2 players) 5s 7s QsHero checks, SB bets 20.00, foldSB wins 80.00 Just wondering if there is any way to play this better. I find myself in this situation a lot and not sure what the optimal thing to do is. This was a super turbo (500 chips) on FTP.I was debating whether or not to 3-bet shove but elect to flat and then give up to a min raise on the flop.
At 20 bb effective stacks I think flatting is the worst option. Against certain people I guess you could make a case for shoving, but personally I would fold pf.
This hand was one of the earlier hands in the match and I had no prior information on the opponent so I wasn't sure what the best action was.
Why is calling the minraise so bad? We are not shallow enough for Endgame play and are facing a minraise. What are the other options?Folding K8o getting this odds? nope.Reshoving 20BB deep - could be fine.I am interested what the coaches say to this hand, I realized I do fine in early and endgame, but my 20-25 BB game has bigger leaks.This hand reminds me at this onehttp://www.husng.com/content/k7sSo given the replies in this thread i think flatting is fine.
a fold is fine on this flop imo. your OOP, your outs are not clean anymore. 2 cards too come plus the drawy board make your highcard vulnerable. really don't think its necesary to continue. But i play the same level you do so also interested in other opinions :)
I think if it was suited, as was the k7s hand, I could see calling. Be interested to see what Rypac has to say. Maybe I'm too much of a nit. The other question is, how agro has he been post flop. Is he likely to auto cbet just about any flop.
Flatting 100% standard here. Too deep (and not the best hand) to 3bet shove, and too strong to fold.I think check-folding this flop is correct too. If min-cbetting is his standard, you can pick some spots to play back at him by check-raising or floating with a lot of air, but this isn't the best hand for it, with no pair no draw no backdoors and probably some reverse implied odds.Wp.
Too much of a nit eejit!Kidding of course, but the main concept about playing these hands is that they play much better short.The main problems with playing an unsuited, non strong kicker hand like K8o deep is that you're OOP (positional advantage is greater deep, lots more flexibility and stack behind) and prone to losing massive pots when you hit a strong hand, and not winning enough big pots to make up for it.However, short stacked, you don't see guys give up 2nd or 3rd pair to 2-3 bets too often (and rightfully so, if they do you can literally just bet every street 90% of the time and crush people). So you don't have the same negatives present here as you would deep.Further, you're facing a minraise, so it's cheaper to see a flop. 3betting isn't ideal in most cases, unless you're facing a player that opens extremely wide and calls fairly tight for that open range.Another advantage is that K8o is now much stronger than draws at these stack depths. Hands like 76s face up to K8o much better in position deeper, but this short, those hands don't make enough strong hands on earlier streets, nor do they win enough large pots versus the risk (minraise pre, often a cbet) at these stacks (a minraise or even 3x deep plus a cbet is still a small portion of the stack, but 20bb deep that's a lot of chips to risk by "default" and the only other option is to play it more passively, which also will help K8o get to showdown cheaper with a high card).Playing on that last reason, K hi can win in many situations where you have some specific reads on your opponent. That doesn't mean you need to play them for 20 games. If you notice them betting or bluffing a certain way, you can often assume it's likely they will play simlar hands similarly on various board textures, so as you improve your hand reading abilities you'll find situations you consider "standard" to call down with K hi profitably. There's always the chance to bluff as well, but that's kind of universal (IE you can bluff a player that is good to bluff with any type of hand, so it's not specific to K8 here).Folding the flop is standard in this situation, as is the preflop call. Nico hit it on the head here, if the min cbet is his standard you can play back, but this board isn't even good for that (you'd have to have some unique read like your opponent bets draws and pairs on drawy heavy boards large for you to consider playing back here a lot).Cog's new super turbo BB video posted today might help reinforce some of the calling/3betting decisions preflop OOP in super turbos. Mers also did an advanced end game video from the BB. That one is premium, Cog's is standard membership.
Hey Ryan, Taking the time to leave such a detailed response really makes the membership worthwhile. I've got to start posting a few hands myself to take more advantage of it.I just watched the Mers BB end game video again, for the first time since it came out and I'd forgotten a lot of stuff, although I might have to watch it about twenty more times before it starts to really sink in.Thanks again.