Hi guys,I have a little problem with some "fish friends" and would really like to hear your opinions on this topic.There is this group of people that I really enjoy hanging out with, but they just completely suck at poker. We often play at the weekends while having a few drinks, but they're just total fish, and they're also unwilling to realize that, let alone learn and improve their game.Unfortunately, they also talk a lot about "strategy" at the table - except that their "strategy" doesn't make any sense and is often even contrary to what a winning player would do. Some of them are also much more experienced in live play than I am, and they've already won some money in local casinos against other recreational players. There's this one guy who often knows exactly what I have from just looking at me ... well, I obviously must be making something wrong.However, even the experienced live players just completely suck when blinds get higher, so I just completely crush them once it gets down to 3-handed or heads-up - though variance is really extremely high.Most of them are just recreational players - they only play every now and then at the weekends, to have fun. These people are just huge calling-stations, and when they sit at the table, they lose most of the time. But they're also the most boring opponents. I've even offered them chops against equity in the past - like 50:50 when I'm a 4:1 chipleader with small blinds - simply because I found it more entertaining to quit and talk to other people instead of playing for another 15+ minutes for just "peanuts".And in some of them, I really see a lot of potential - if they were just willing to at least avoid the most expensive mistakes - but they're so completely unwilling to lean anything, even feel insulted and criticized if I say anything about their game. It's probably that old clichee - everybody wants to be King at playing Poker, nobody wants to admit that he's making mistakes and that his game needs serious improvements.Unfortunately, I find it more and more difficult to find any fun in these games - it's mostly me getting both boring and annoyed very quickly, so first thing I have to do after sitting at the table is making sure that my alcohol level quickly gets to that point where it all doesn't matter anymore. And I also feel bad about just taking their money when I get lucky and get 3-handed or less as a huge chipleader.To make things worse, it's also very hard not to hurt their feelings - like, if I say that I don't want to play, they also get mad at me.Any advise on this ?Is all hope lost, or is there any way to turn learn-unwilling fish into something like a bad regular - without hurting their feelings ? And how should I do this, if they simply don't want to hear why their play is bad ?I'd really like to keep playing with them - if they could just get just a little bit better at this game ...Jack
Dont try to change other people againts their willings - it's impossible. Just relax, get more drinks and talk about girls. Or cars.
"get more drinks"That would be my approach.Honestly, since I got into poker, I rarely play live/fun games any more, for many of the reasons you mentioned.However, I do have some friends I used to play with, pre 2007, and we had some great times donking around, eating, drinking, just general bullshitting. And I found fun in this even if the stakes were as low as $5 or $10 (though the $50 buyin was a lot more fun the few times we had the right people present to do that).However, none of these people had such delusions of granduer (myself included) and I think that's a major hurdle you have to overcome to enjoy this game (based on what you're saying).One thing you may want to do is give up trying to "change" these people. You may want to work on just relaxing and enjoying some games. If you truly love poker, it should be fun enough to just splash around. Become a maniac, try out new strategies or try to get side bets going on random things (color of cards, strongest hands, etc.).Just giving up on these people becoming great poker players sounds like a start though.I've had my own issues at times in the past and present, expecting people to be or do things that I want them to do, rather than what they are likely to do. The problems with you being a poker player (and successful one at that) is that you likely have a very strong logical mind. You think, "Hey, if I coach these people and they just take it seriously, they can make tons of money for no real investment. That's a great deal for them, they should like it." But that is only true if everybody fully understands and is comfortable with something like this. And that's just not the case enough of the time that you can't rely purely on logic and "what's good for both of us" to get by.I've learned that both in social situations and in business situations. Sometimes what is best for both parties is not going to be the deal the other party accepts. The best advice I have on that front at this point is to try to figure out what the other person values and see if what you value lines up with it. If it doesn't, don't expect anything to work out between you two, but keep trying and keep a friendly dialogue open in case something does pop up in the future.
Yes don't try to change them. If you are really so much better.. just take as much of their money as you can. And always try to raise the stakes. Not to be evil and take your friends money but after a while they will really respect your skills. You are taking a lot of money from them. Go with them to the live casino and own that place. They will be eating knowledge out of your hand within a year.
Getting more drinks really sounds like a good plan to me :-)You're absolutely right, I just need to accept the fact that I can't change these people, so I should just make the best out of it, hang out and have fun without taking it too seriously. Trying out new things also sounds like a cool idea - maybe I could just try some really weird things, just to see how people react to it.
Exactly. If you're not betting pot, or 3x pot, or 2x pot vs these guys, you're not maximizing your fun!Just wait to see how bad they feel you are when you start throwing out massive overbets.Most people opt to get fancy with baby bets. To be honest, unless short stacked (where it's not often fancy anyways), mistakes aren't usually large when you splash around with small bets. Frustrate or make them feel you're terrible with massive bets, and just learn to manipulate them properly from there and it should honestly give you something to think about (and maybe you'll learn a thing or two that can help you against random husng opponents).
do not talk badly about your friends just because they ar not as good at poker as you.just realise it is not your job to make theyr game better , they would hate it if you tell them what to do without them first asking you.so stick to winning and when they discuss strategy tell your point of view with good arguments.
So we played again last night. The only thing that I couldn't try out was getting more drinks, since I'm embarking on an important off-world mission in about an hour and need to be sober for that.I tried some overbets, and it really wasn't a pleasant experience for me. For instance, I openend half stack UTG with AQs, the entire table called. Flop came K85-rb, I jammed, 3 people called - one had AT, the other guy 22 and the third one took it down with 85 ... "can't fold a suited hand pre-flop" ... so I was the idiot who put all his chips into the pot when beat.What I really don't understand is how intelligent people can turn into complete idiots as soon as they sit down at the table. I mean, these people are really intelligent, most of them also have jobs which require higher brain functions, but their brain somehow shuts down at the table.A few months ago, there was this guy who played chess, and he was really good at it, we played heads-up for over an hour and he just didn't realize how I was exploiting him and completely running him over.How is that possible ? Is it really so hard to pick up on what your opponent is doing if you're not used to it ? Shouldn't it be obvious - sooner or later - to an intelligent person - that I just can't have hit 80+% of all flops ? That I never call when led into, but always bet when checked to ?There's this other card game that I play with some other good friends, and there it's really important to focus and to play well, you have to remember cards that you've seen in the past, who had them, how many points you and your opponent has etc. In the past, I got criticized several times for drinking too much, so I stopped that and started to focus more.Why isn't that also possible when playing poker ?Is it because people just don't recognize poker as a game of skill ? Or because they don't care, that that want to shut down their brain and not think about anything ?Or maybe I'm just not the right person to play their game because I'm apparently incapable of completely turning off my brain unless I'm totally drunk.Well, just realized that my team already dialed up the Stargate, and they're ready to go off-world ...Have a nice weekend, guys !Jack