Good question, I would think the rake is a little too high at that level to recommend playing. 4.5% or so if I'm not mistaken, that's a little too high to be realistically beatable.
I think they should be used more of a platform for working on a good solid A game, with the view of moving up when you have a good game put together. In the long run, i would imagine not too many games at the lowest levels, but once you can start building a strong foundation, everything else should take care of itself.
2,9% would be beatable for sure. at 100$ at FT the rake was 2%. For good players beatable at an additional 3.5% imo some like Zak Wray or Serkules had sick Roi in Hypers which were even way higher.. so 2.9% at 3 $ beatable for sure.
I agree that 2.9% should be beatable.It's still a little high, but not high enough to worry, if you're playing well and you're a good player at that level, you should make good money still. Even a 2% ROI can be pretty good, sometimes even better than other husng structures, given that you can get so many hyper games in per hour.
Both the $1,50 and $3,50 hypers are beatable imo. I wasted some of my time by playing 200 $1,50 hypers just to try them and had a 9,4% roi. Obv a very small sample, but I think a roi of 5-7 should be sustainable, because the players on these are so incredibly worse!Edit: I was a bit too enthusiastic, guess a roi of 3-5% is more realistic.
Since I started playing more recently I have 181 played for 7.14% ROI.Definitely beatable but I don't plan to stay at the $1.50s long enough to know for sure :)
do you think stars.fr HT are beatable ? they have 6% rake just like turbos (9.35 +0.65, 18.8 + 1.2 etc) but the aveirage level is awful. How much ITM% do I need to break even in these ?
Actually, it's even worse than that when you move up: rake at the 50€ HT is a staggering 7% (yes, SEVEN).Why the geniuises at PS.fr decided it would be a good idea to rake the highest stake they offer even higher than lower stakes is beyond me.Playing against lolbad villains at these stakes will only take you so far: you're still 25bb deep at best, and as bad as they are, its not like you will get it in with <55% equity on average over the LT nor can you hope to win that many pots without showdown since, well, that would require they locate the mythical long-lost fold button...I'm in to try and get our voices heard, thanks to Rypac and husng for the support.
I don't think it's likely beatable. Even worse players on that network won't likely make up for that atrocious rake. It's basically 3x as high of rake as the market.
Thanks Ryan, i'm going to try to mobilize french husngers. However do you know if there is an other way to contact PS Steve since a few french people are on 2+2 ? Would emailing stars support have same impact ? Or PMing Pokerstars Antoine (ps.fr room manager, doing the equivalent of 2+2's Steve on french forums)
Emailing ideas@pokerstars.com (or .fr maybe) is probably a good idea.But, you should let Steve know that you guys are looking to have similar changes made on .fr as were made on .com and perhaps he can discuss it with Antoine and personally let him know of their thought process/advantages of the changes.If you guys need some help, I would be happy to PM Steve myself for you and see what he says, but organize 10+ players first if you don't mind, just so that it's an honest group effort.
i had a discussion with Antoine on Skype, here is his final statement:"écoute rashid, c'est simple, en l'etat les test sont EXTREMEMENT satisfaisants, autant au niveau de la fréquentation que du feedback"
Translation for our non-french speaking friends here:"Listen, it's really simple, as it is the tests (regarding the recent HT implementation) have been EXTREMELY satisfying, both from a traffic and feedback standpoint"Edit: as Marzipannase pointed out, the .fr HT don't have a 25/50 level. Yet another way we're getting screwed.
The 25-50 level may be added soon, if Antoine asks you about it let him know how you feel.I was reading up on some of the tax threads on 2p2 and it really looks like the hyper issue is more of a result of a poor tax model than a choice. Unfortunately, that leads me to believe that the tax situation probably needs to be fixed first. I let PokerStars know about your feelings on the hyper rake and they certainly always are receptive and polite to suggestions, but then after reading how the taxes work on 2p2, I just don't think it's likely to drop much/any without a change in taxes.
Rypac,Sorry I wasn't more thorough in my explaination in this thread. We perfectly understand how the french tax system works when it comes to poker and we aren't expecting any miracles nor are we mistaking PS for a non-profit organization. You are right in that the main issue we're facing here is that:a) The 2% tax rate + VAT is too high overallb) The tax is applied indiscriminately on all tournament BI at all levels, all cg pots and all variantsThis is why *the number 1 thing* french players are lobbying for right now, is to have the tax rate reduced overall, and for it to be applied to the poker rooms' gross income so as to leave them with some wiggle room in applying appropriate rake rates for each level/variant. As a matter of fact, last week I made a thread that was linked on the frontpage of the biggest french poker forum, detailling the whole situation and giving (to the best of my knowledge) exact numbers comparing how much PS.com and PS.fr earned per sng at the 50€/$60 level.That specific post can be found here:http://www.clubpoker.net/forum-poker/topic/151753-sng-ht-version-test/pa...(In french of course, but I think the figures speak for themselves, and I'd be willing to give you a translation if you're interested). What remains is that, as of right now, PS.fr is raking the <50€ HT at 6%, *just like turbos*At the 50€ level things get even worse, as the HT are raked at 7%, *less than turbos and just as much as reg speeds*In other words, and contrary to what they did in the past, this time PS.fr decided to have the entire burden of the tax fall on the players, *in the format that can least handle it, for obvious structural reasons*We feel that taking as much rake for a sng that not only lasts 3 to 6 times less long on average, but for which edges are also drastically reduced, fails to take into account all variables, frankly looks like a straight-up money grab and is simply unacceptable from a player's standpoint.Moreover, we cannot choose to simply ignore this situation, look the other way and not play those. Right now, not only is this new format unbeatable, but it is also *cannibalizing an already weak HU traffic* and negatively impacting the reg and turbo speeds. As a matter of fact, we'd rather the HT not be implemented at all than be implemented with such a high rake. Unfortunately, this won't happen since the oblivious crowds (for now) are flocking to it and their implementation sounds like a clear success (again, for now).We do realize that we won't resolve this issue in a fully satisfactory way until the law is changed. But in the meantime, we can at least try to get our voices heard, and try to make things a little less bad for the players. Adding that 25-50 level would be a first step :)
I do agree and understand completely your point of view. I'm definitely on your side.But realistically, it doesn't seem like a poker room will likely reduce the rake or lose money in one game and make more off of another game in this environment, that's all I'm saying.The 25-50 issue is something I think can be changed if enough players make their opinions known to PokerStars, they often do a good job with that (especially since the 25-50 level was added to .com, so somebody on the .com side obviously saw the value of adding that level as a result of the players making themselves known, so just repeat that and I think it happens).I think the tax thing is the biggest enemy. You're asking Stars to go above and beyond what most businesses do in this industry, unfortunately. Look at the other sites outside of .fr and their practices and procedures. Party is spreading super high rake at the $5-100 level husngs right now. Yet at $200+ the rake gets super low. That makes no sense, it doesn't add players to their game, it doesn't protect their game, it doesn't give them great margins on rake... it doesn't accomplish anything they could want to do."We feel that taking as much rake for a sng that not only lasts 3 to 6 times less long on average, but for which edges are also drastically reduced, fails to take into account all variables, frankly looks like a straight-up money grab and is simply unacceptable from a player's standpoint."I do agree completely. The problem is, that due to the high taxes each tournament is treated as one tournament, no matter if it's a no blind increase that takes 30 min to complete on avg or a super turbo that takes 2.5 minutes.You could ask them to remove the games until they can rake them at a fair price, a huge demand from players like that might be met with positive changes. But I don't expect them to take no money/lose money on one game and not another, that's not often how the poker rooms work (and it's hard enough to get them to make ecologically good changes at times, example hu cash system was broken for years but the short sighted boom seemed to keep clueless decision makers from fixing the setup of that game and it's my opinion that the poker rooms did not seize the real opportunity there to help that game grow in a healthy and long term viable/max profitable way).
This is frustrating to read since if poker gets legalized in the US, I don't want to see similar BS.It should be illegal to offer games that are unbeatable for at least 2% ROI. The rake is already like a tax and then the government applies a tax too. That's a lot of extra fees. The games need to be fair even if people are clueless enough to play unbeatable games that serve as little more than rake factories. That turns poker into craps.
Definitely Katipo. I dislike when businesses and governments try to turn things into a predatory casino environment. In this case, I blame the French government, as Stars clearly spreads fairly raked games outside of France, and even did in the US despite high legal costs, less effective marketing (than in a regulated environment), high processing fees and the like.It's more like a citizen-government issue and the result of failed government influence on online poker is a business offers a much worse product than could otherwise be offered.
Rypac,Thanks for taking the time to answer.I do agree that with PS position of being a market leader and having a long, well established history of listening to and addressing its players' concerns (at least moreso than competing sites), right now they're (unfairly) taking alot of flack on this issue, when the situation clearly is even worse elsewhere. I and others are obviously being vocal in our disagreement wih PS, whereas our disagreement with those competing sites is a silent, hidden one: we simply don't play there. Again, I do realize such a gap seems unfair from an external point of view, when the site which arguably least deserves it is faced with the most abundant criticism.As I said, I feel like I do have a pretty good grasp on the economic realities PS.Fr is faced with, I'm definitely not mistaking them for a non-profit organization nor am I asking for miracles from them. However, I still feel that even under the current conditions, the HT situation could be improved. In the french poker forum thread that I previously linked, my propositions were twofold (and, at least in my opinion, pretty reasonable ones):1) At the very least, at the 50€ level (and up, if those are to ever be implemented), set the HT's rake in line with the turbos' rake. Again, right now the rake is at 6% for both HT and turbos at the <50€ level, at 6% again for the 50€ turbos, but jumps to 7% for the 50€ HT. I feel like slapping the highest rake % on the highest stake offered, where competition will be the toughest and edges will be the smallest, simply is an aberration and goes against well-established, standard business practices in poker.On top of that, agreeing to a smal additionnal decrease in rake (say, 0.2€/0.4%) would go a long way in showing that PS aknowledges this format's specificities and keeps its players' interest at heart even when strained under heavy, unfavorable legal pressure. Right now, according to my calculation, deducting taxes/VAT and even 30% "rakeback", PS.fr is making 0.89€ per 50€ HT, whereas PS.com is only pulling $0.89 per $60 sng. So, in the case of HT Sngs, not only PS.fr has left the players to bear the entire burden of the tax, but given the $/€ parity they're also making more money per game than PS.com at comparable stakes.2) Since I do realize that, in regards to the rake, no amount of reasonable effort from PS.fr will bring it to a satisfactory level unless the law gets changed, my second set of propositions was to try and increase the potential edges/profitability in this format through external factors. This could include anything from implementing a "I'm ready" button and reducing the time bank to shorten games duration, to switching to 3min levels and/or reducing the amount of time alloted for actions, to creating a new BoP HU leaderboard, etc...Implementing a 25-50 level would of course fit that bill, and I fully support it. I'll create a poll on said french poker forum to try and raise attention about it ASAP.
I just got owned fair and square by PS_Antoine, who ninja edited the HT this morning without warning, by adding the 25-50 level and dropping the 50€ level rake to 6%. That will teach me to check the forums before I check the PS lobby.Thanks to him/PS.fr for making the changes, and thanks to Rypac and everyone here for the support.I still don't think this will make the format beatable over the LT, but it sure makes the situation noticeably less bad.
25-50 being added should help, you didn't get ninja owned by Antoine, you guys made your voices heard and Stars agreed that the 25-50 level was something players wanted that they could add to .fr, so they added it. Good job everyone.I might suggest pressing them for a change that could work for BOTH sides (Stars and players) temporarily, and then just really throwing everything you have behind a push to your government on a long term sustainable tax structure. Making the structure deeper/at deeper effective stacks might do that, but try to really keep in mind both sides of this before you suggest anything, and agree on something so you can have max effect when you collectively talk to Antoine and Stars.fr management.On the government note, talking to friends and family and organizing some email letters to representatives in government can be very effective. If you can get some automated letters and petitions, so that all you have to do is have a few words with friends and family and have them hit "send" more or less, then you're going to have a very efficient system setup that can really reach the politicians in mass.Good luck guys, update if anything major happens, and feel free to use this thread to exchange ideas or to discuss this issue further.
How did you get on with these ? Any updates ?
Good question, I would think the rake is a little too high at that level to recommend playing. 4.5% or so if I'm not mistaken, that's a little too high to be realistically beatable.
I think they should be used more of a platform for working on a good solid A game, with the view of moving up when you have a good game put together. In the long run, i would imagine not too many games at the lowest levels, but once you can start building a strong foundation, everything else should take care of itself.
Thanks for the info guys. What would you say about the $3.40+$0.10 hyper's? Thats something like 2.9% rake if i done my calcs right. Beatable? Thanks
2,9% would be beatable for sure. at 100$ at FT the rake was 2%. For good players beatable at an additional 3.5% imo some like Zak Wray or Serkules had sick Roi in Hypers which were even way higher.. so 2.9% at 3 $ beatable for sure.
cant see the future sorry ....
I agree that 2.9% should be beatable.It's still a little high, but not high enough to worry, if you're playing well and you're a good player at that level, you should make good money still. Even a 2% ROI can be pretty good, sometimes even better than other husng structures, given that you can get so many hyper games in per hour.
Both the $1,50 and $3,50 hypers are beatable imo. I wasted some of my time by playing 200 $1,50 hypers just to try them and had a 9,4% roi. Obv a very small sample, but I think a roi of 5-7 should be sustainable, because the players on these are so incredibly worse!Edit: I was a bit too enthusiastic, guess a roi of 3-5% is more realistic.
Since I started playing more recently I have 181 played for 7.14% ROI.Definitely beatable but I don't plan to stay at the $1.50s long enough to know for sure :)
So how is it going on micro hyper turbos?Do you have bigger sample size?;>Regards,
do you think stars.fr HT are beatable ? they have 6% rake just like turbos (9.35 +0.65, 18.8 + 1.2 etc) but the aveirage level is awful. How much ITM% do I need to break even in these ?
Actually, it's even worse than that when you move up: rake at the 50€ HT is a staggering 7% (yes, SEVEN).Why the geniuises at PS.fr decided it would be a good idea to rake the highest stake they offer even higher than lower stakes is beyond me.Playing against lolbad villains at these stakes will only take you so far: you're still 25bb deep at best, and as bad as they are, its not like you will get it in with <55% equity on average over the LT nor can you hope to win that many pots without showdown since, well, that would require they locate the mythical long-lost fold button...I'm in to try and get our voices heard, thanks to Rypac and husng for the support.
I don't think it's likely beatable. Even worse players on that network won't likely make up for that atrocious rake. It's basically 3x as high of rake as the market.
afaik the hypers at ps.fr dont have the 25/50 level that they added at ps.com. So its even harder.
Marzipannase
If enough .fr players message PokerStars Steve on 2p2, it should maximize the chances of getting that fixed.
Thanks Ryan, i'm going to try to mobilize french husngers. However do you know if there is an other way to contact PS Steve since a few french people are on 2+2 ? Would emailing stars support have same impact ? Or PMing Pokerstars Antoine (ps.fr room manager, doing the equivalent of 2+2's Steve on french forums)
Emailing ideas@pokerstars.com (or .fr maybe) is probably a good idea.But, you should let Steve know that you guys are looking to have similar changes made on .fr as were made on .com and perhaps he can discuss it with Antoine and personally let him know of their thought process/advantages of the changes.If you guys need some help, I would be happy to PM Steve myself for you and see what he says, but organize 10+ players first if you don't mind, just so that it's an honest group effort.
I post here and wait to have 10+ players http://www.clubpoker.net/forum-poker/topic/151753-sng-ht-version-test/page__st__125__gopid__2588817#entry2588817 thank you very much Ryan :)
i had a discussion with Antoine on Skype, here is his final statement:"écoute rashid, c'est simple, en l'etat les test sont EXTREMEMENT satisfaisants, autant au niveau de la fréquentation que du feedback"
Translation for our non-french speaking friends here:"Listen, it's really simple, as it is the tests (regarding the recent HT implementation) have been EXTREMELY satisfying, both from a traffic and feedback standpoint"Edit: as Marzipannase pointed out, the .fr HT don't have a 25/50 level. Yet another way we're getting screwed.
Ok, I've sent the message, lets hope there is a kind reaction.
Thanks alot Rypac, we'll keep our fingers crossed too
Thank you very much Ryan
The 25-50 level may be added soon, if Antoine asks you about it let him know how you feel.I was reading up on some of the tax threads on 2p2 and it really looks like the hyper issue is more of a result of a poor tax model than a choice. Unfortunately, that leads me to believe that the tax situation probably needs to be fixed first. I let PokerStars know about your feelings on the hyper rake and they certainly always are receptive and polite to suggestions, but then after reading how the taxes work on 2p2, I just don't think it's likely to drop much/any without a change in taxes.
Rypac,Sorry I wasn't more thorough in my explaination in this thread. We perfectly understand how the french tax system works when it comes to poker and we aren't expecting any miracles nor are we mistaking PS for a non-profit organization. You are right in that the main issue we're facing here is that:a) The 2% tax rate + VAT is too high overallb) The tax is applied indiscriminately on all tournament BI at all levels, all cg pots and all variantsThis is why *the number 1 thing* french players are lobbying for right now, is to have the tax rate reduced overall, and for it to be applied to the poker rooms' gross income so as to leave them with some wiggle room in applying appropriate rake rates for each level/variant. As a matter of fact, last week I made a thread that was linked on the frontpage of the biggest french poker forum, detailling the whole situation and giving (to the best of my knowledge) exact numbers comparing how much PS.com and PS.fr earned per sng at the 50€/$60 level.That specific post can be found here:http://www.clubpoker.net/forum-poker/topic/151753-sng-ht-version-test/pa...(In french of course, but I think the figures speak for themselves, and I'd be willing to give you a translation if you're interested). What remains is that, as of right now, PS.fr is raking the <50€ HT at 6%, *just like turbos*At the 50€ level things get even worse, as the HT are raked at 7%, *less than turbos and just as much as reg speeds*In other words, and contrary to what they did in the past, this time PS.fr decided to have the entire burden of the tax fall on the players, *in the format that can least handle it, for obvious structural reasons*We feel that taking as much rake for a sng that not only lasts 3 to 6 times less long on average, but for which edges are also drastically reduced, fails to take into account all variables, frankly looks like a straight-up money grab and is simply unacceptable from a player's standpoint.Moreover, we cannot choose to simply ignore this situation, look the other way and not play those. Right now, not only is this new format unbeatable, but it is also *cannibalizing an already weak HU traffic* and negatively impacting the reg and turbo speeds. As a matter of fact, we'd rather the HT not be implemented at all than be implemented with such a high rake. Unfortunately, this won't happen since the oblivious crowds (for now) are flocking to it and their implementation sounds like a clear success (again, for now).We do realize that we won't resolve this issue in a fully satisfactory way until the law is changed. But in the meantime, we can at least try to get our voices heard, and try to make things a little less bad for the players. Adding that 25-50 level would be a first step :)
I do agree and understand completely your point of view. I'm definitely on your side.But realistically, it doesn't seem like a poker room will likely reduce the rake or lose money in one game and make more off of another game in this environment, that's all I'm saying.The 25-50 issue is something I think can be changed if enough players make their opinions known to PokerStars, they often do a good job with that (especially since the 25-50 level was added to .com, so somebody on the .com side obviously saw the value of adding that level as a result of the players making themselves known, so just repeat that and I think it happens).I think the tax thing is the biggest enemy. You're asking Stars to go above and beyond what most businesses do in this industry, unfortunately. Look at the other sites outside of .fr and their practices and procedures. Party is spreading super high rake at the $5-100 level husngs right now. Yet at $200+ the rake gets super low. That makes no sense, it doesn't add players to their game, it doesn't protect their game, it doesn't give them great margins on rake... it doesn't accomplish anything they could want to do."We feel that taking as much rake for a sng that not only lasts 3 to 6 times less long on average, but for which edges are also drastically reduced, fails to take into account all variables, frankly looks like a straight-up money grab and is simply unacceptable from a player's standpoint."I do agree completely. The problem is, that due to the high taxes each tournament is treated as one tournament, no matter if it's a no blind increase that takes 30 min to complete on avg or a super turbo that takes 2.5 minutes.You could ask them to remove the games until they can rake them at a fair price, a huge demand from players like that might be met with positive changes. But I don't expect them to take no money/lose money on one game and not another, that's not often how the poker rooms work (and it's hard enough to get them to make ecologically good changes at times, example hu cash system was broken for years but the short sighted boom seemed to keep clueless decision makers from fixing the setup of that game and it's my opinion that the poker rooms did not seize the real opportunity there to help that game grow in a healthy and long term viable/max profitable way).
This is frustrating to read since if poker gets legalized in the US, I don't want to see similar BS.It should be illegal to offer games that are unbeatable for at least 2% ROI. The rake is already like a tax and then the government applies a tax too. That's a lot of extra fees. The games need to be fair even if people are clueless enough to play unbeatable games that serve as little more than rake factories. That turns poker into craps.
Coaching page + Blog
Definitely Katipo. I dislike when businesses and governments try to turn things into a predatory casino environment. In this case, I blame the French government, as Stars clearly spreads fairly raked games outside of France, and even did in the US despite high legal costs, less effective marketing (than in a regulated environment), high processing fees and the like.It's more like a citizen-government issue and the result of failed government influence on online poker is a business offers a much worse product than could otherwise be offered.
Rypac,Thanks for taking the time to answer.I do agree that with PS position of being a market leader and having a long, well established history of listening to and addressing its players' concerns (at least moreso than competing sites), right now they're (unfairly) taking alot of flack on this issue, when the situation clearly is even worse elsewhere. I and others are obviously being vocal in our disagreement wih PS, whereas our disagreement with those competing sites is a silent, hidden one: we simply don't play there. Again, I do realize such a gap seems unfair from an external point of view, when the site which arguably least deserves it is faced with the most abundant criticism.As I said, I feel like I do have a pretty good grasp on the economic realities PS.Fr is faced with, I'm definitely not mistaking them for a non-profit organization nor am I asking for miracles from them. However, I still feel that even under the current conditions, the HT situation could be improved. In the french poker forum thread that I previously linked, my propositions were twofold (and, at least in my opinion, pretty reasonable ones):1) At the very least, at the 50€ level (and up, if those are to ever be implemented), set the HT's rake in line with the turbos' rake. Again, right now the rake is at 6% for both HT and turbos at the <50€ level, at 6% again for the 50€ turbos, but jumps to 7% for the 50€ HT. I feel like slapping the highest rake % on the highest stake offered, where competition will be the toughest and edges will be the smallest, simply is an aberration and goes against well-established, standard business practices in poker.On top of that, agreeing to a smal additionnal decrease in rake (say, 0.2€/0.4%) would go a long way in showing that PS aknowledges this format's specificities and keeps its players' interest at heart even when strained under heavy, unfavorable legal pressure. Right now, according to my calculation, deducting taxes/VAT and even 30% "rakeback", PS.fr is making 0.89€ per 50€ HT, whereas PS.com is only pulling $0.89 per $60 sng. So, in the case of HT Sngs, not only PS.fr has left the players to bear the entire burden of the tax, but given the $/€ parity they're also making more money per game than PS.com at comparable stakes.2) Since I do realize that, in regards to the rake, no amount of reasonable effort from PS.fr will bring it to a satisfactory level unless the law gets changed, my second set of propositions was to try and increase the potential edges/profitability in this format through external factors. This could include anything from implementing a "I'm ready" button and reducing the time bank to shorten games duration, to switching to 3min levels and/or reducing the amount of time alloted for actions, to creating a new BoP HU leaderboard, etc...Implementing a 25-50 level would of course fit that bill, and I fully support it. I'll create a poll on said french poker forum to try and raise attention about it ASAP.
I just got owned fair and square by PS_Antoine, who ninja edited the HT this morning without warning, by adding the 25-50 level and dropping the 50€ level rake to 6%. That will teach me to check the forums before I check the PS lobby.Thanks to him/PS.fr for making the changes, and thanks to Rypac and everyone here for the support.I still don't think this will make the format beatable over the LT, but it sure makes the situation noticeably less bad.
25-50 being added should help, you didn't get ninja owned by Antoine, you guys made your voices heard and Stars agreed that the 25-50 level was something players wanted that they could add to .fr, so they added it. Good job everyone.I might suggest pressing them for a change that could work for BOTH sides (Stars and players) temporarily, and then just really throwing everything you have behind a push to your government on a long term sustainable tax structure. Making the structure deeper/at deeper effective stacks might do that, but try to really keep in mind both sides of this before you suggest anything, and agree on something so you can have max effect when you collectively talk to Antoine and Stars.fr management.On the government note, talking to friends and family and organizing some email letters to representatives in government can be very effective. If you can get some automated letters and petitions, so that all you have to do is have a few words with friends and family and have them hit "send" more or less, then you're going to have a very efficient system setup that can really reach the politicians in mass.Good luck guys, update if anything major happens, and feel free to use this thread to exchange ideas or to discuss this issue further.