Minraising has the positive of fold equity in many cases, the negative is that you don't do great against a wide shoving range and you're in very bad shape against a semi narrow one. Another downside is that A2 doesn't flop incredibly well, so going into the flop you are effectively worse off than with a hand like JT or T9 even.Open shoving allows you to get maximum fold equity and fold out those T9, J9 type middling hands that actually flop better and have good equity in general against A2.
But how to actually decide which is the best course of action? Assuming I expect villain to 3bet shove wide, what defines the best option between minrasing/calling or open shoving a hand like A2?
If villian doesnt 3B light then jam it for max fold equity.2x if villian is a maniac (or on tilt) who you can induce to push 84o.As rypac said to raise A-rag against opponents who call light OOP/aggro post is a disaster for the hand. In what scenarios would you actually 2x the A-rag rypac?If villian is really tight OOP, BBC 20% , FCB 75%, 3B 5%Then A-rags becomes 2x hands doesnt it?
I don't like a minraise against a wide 3bet shover. You have minimal preflop fold equity then and you don't have amazing equity postflop. Compare the equity of A2o against some hand ranges and you'll see what I mean.You'll often just open shove.It's actually when your opponent is fairly tight and passive (in my mind) where you can minraise A2. In this situation there's little risk of 3bet shoving and there's fold equity with a simple minraise.
Hello,Minraising sets stacks up for a pretty good 3b shove spot (you never have great equity because even vs 54s it's a coinflip) . Also it sets stacks up nicely for a c/r shove on the flop. Or even a donk barrel. Now if you limp your hand is kind of deceptive and it's tough for your opponnent as the pot to stack ratio is pretty big and he's OOP.Open shoving is extremely standard tho: Obv your hand doesnt play very well at all postflop. Also because you beat hands like KQs and KJs so even when called you're ahead a lot of the time. A2o is only in the top 43% of hands, but it actually beats a ton of hands in that range, however you almost never have great equity vs any hand so you're really looking for a fold. Other than allowing him to put in the last bet with 54s is a disaster as it is a coinflip when and if you call him.Reasons for considering limping is when you got a huge edge vs a weak player who you want to play small ball against (especially when those 13bb's are a big % of your stack.) If he raises it's a fold for me.Vs good players you could try it I suppose when you think he will let you get away with that and that you got a good read on. Especially if for some reason you know he will view your limp as strong. But the thing is that when he 3x'd you with for example QJs it's just pretty bad.
the thing which determines if minraise calling is better then openshoving is villains jamming range vs your minraise at that stack depth there are tons of players who show up with K2-K6 J2s-J5s kind of hands vs them it will be majorly +EV to minraise call because they will get it in ALOT vs ur minraise and show up with a range u dominate, just out of the top of my head, if they have like some 2x combos in it, that they will normally fold to an openjam, it is surely best.so unless villain has these kind of hands in his calling range its best to openjam for the reasons rypac statedHowever, keep in mind, when openjamming a hand like A2o, all the longterm money you are making is from getting folds, since u will somewhat break even over the long run when called.in other words, in general (readless) openjamming at 13bbs will be the best option. So you would need reads to be sure minraise calling is better. i do disagree with rypac about liking minraising with the intention to actually see a flop. its just too hard, even against a passive player, and openjamming will bring near equal or better results. hope that helps JTS
JTS, I said "Another downside is that A2 doesn't flop incredibly well, so going into the flop you are effectively worse off than with a hand like JT or T9 even."I think that's literally all I said about seeing a flop. No reason to be afraid of a flop, but it's obviously not the best hand to see a flop with, so you have to take that into consideration.Hundrye/R-Quaresma made some good points about minraising in a private discussion that stemmed from a twoplustwo thread. He pointed out, that while A2o only has 51-52% equity against hands like JTs or 98s, it does a lot better against stuff like JTo or 97o (I believe 55% range). So minraise calling with those hands can better than open shoving against a wide 3bettor for those reasons (and obviously K2, Q2 type stuff, though in my experience that is more of a rare event).2Guns, when you limp and villain raises to 3x or shoves what do you do? You flop terribly in the first case and in the second case you have that same equity issue, and you're less priced in, with no immediate fold equity than you would be with a minraise. I agree that limping can be an effective strategy, but you need to know your opponent isn't going to likely attack your limps and that you don't have much fold equity with a minraise.
yeah i mightve put too much stress on reading this phrase "It's actually when your opponent is fairly tight and passive (in my mind) where you can minraise A2. In this situation there's little risk of 3bet shoving and there's fold equity with a simple minraise." in no way was i trying to say you are wrong. but the kind of opponent i like minraising A2 vs is the one that jams over SUPERWIDEideally one that only jams or folds and never calls would be the nuts, rather then someone who is tight and passive, because then u most likely have the idea in your mind already, to turn your hand into a bluff postflop, or 'bluff' him into folding hands that have OK equity against you. I think these are all fine, i just wanted to say i dont think a tight passive opponent is the best to minraise against, id rather minraise vs someone who rejams wide, and loose. and almost never flats. if he flats a big percentage of the time, i think openjamming will be best, hence for me it seems at least, that i prefer openjamming the majority of the time, unless with reads, then id prefer a minraise/call.Limping here is something that will very rarely be good, if ever. just my 2 cents JTS
Well I'm probably minraising 100% of my range against a guy that folds to my MR often.Some hands like 22 and 33 I would still likely open shove, but I think otherwise I'm pretty much open minraising most of my range there, for the immediate fold equity.I'm open to there being a better play with some sort of mixed strategy, but we're talking about a tight (and passive) opponent.If he flats a majority of the time open jamming isn't always best though, imagine a guy that just plays really obvious and weak in general, flatting every MR. You just bet once or twice often to huge EV.I do agree about the "shove or fold" guy perhaps being best to MR against, since the call is generally not particularly advantageous to A2o.
Minraising has the positive of fold equity in many cases, the negative is that you don't do great against a wide shoving range and you're in very bad shape against a semi narrow one. Another downside is that A2 doesn't flop incredibly well, so going into the flop you are effectively worse off than with a hand like JT or T9 even.Open shoving allows you to get maximum fold equity and fold out those T9, J9 type middling hands that actually flop better and have good equity in general against A2.
But how to actually decide which is the best course of action? Assuming I expect villain to 3bet shove wide, what defines the best option between minrasing/calling or open shoving a hand like A2?
Thou shalt not tilt.
If villian doesnt 3B light then jam it for max fold equity.2x if villian is a maniac (or on tilt) who you can induce to push 84o.As rypac said to raise A-rag against opponents who call light OOP/aggro post is a disaster for the hand. In what scenarios would you actually 2x the A-rag rypac?If villian is really tight OOP, BBC 20% , FCB 75%, 3B 5%Then A-rags becomes 2x hands doesnt it?
I don't like a minraise against a wide 3bet shover. You have minimal preflop fold equity then and you don't have amazing equity postflop. Compare the equity of A2o against some hand ranges and you'll see what I mean.You'll often just open shove.It's actually when your opponent is fairly tight and passive (in my mind) where you can minraise A2. In this situation there's little risk of 3bet shoving and there's fold equity with a simple minraise.
Hello,Minraising sets stacks up for a pretty good 3b shove spot (you never have great equity because even vs 54s it's a coinflip) . Also it sets stacks up nicely for a c/r shove on the flop. Or even a donk barrel. Now if you limp your hand is kind of deceptive and it's tough for your opponnent as the pot to stack ratio is pretty big and he's OOP.Open shoving is extremely standard tho: Obv your hand doesnt play very well at all postflop. Also because you beat hands like KQs and KJs so even when called you're ahead a lot of the time. A2o is only in the top 43% of hands, but it actually beats a ton of hands in that range, however you almost never have great equity vs any hand so you're really looking for a fold. Other than allowing him to put in the last bet with 54s is a disaster as it is a coinflip when and if you call him.Reasons for considering limping is when you got a huge edge vs a weak player who you want to play small ball against (especially when those 13bb's are a big % of your stack.) If he raises it's a fold for me.Vs good players you could try it I suppose when you think he will let you get away with that and that you got a good read on. Especially if for some reason you know he will view your limp as strong. But the thing is that when he 3x'd you with for example QJs it's just pretty bad.
the thing which determines if minraise calling is better then openshoving is villains jamming range vs your minraise at that stack depth there are tons of players who show up with K2-K6 J2s-J5s kind of hands vs them it will be majorly +EV to minraise call because they will get it in ALOT vs ur minraise and show up with a range u dominate, just out of the top of my head, if they have like some 2x combos in it, that they will normally fold to an openjam, it is surely best.so unless villain has these kind of hands in his calling range its best to openjam for the reasons rypac statedHowever, keep in mind, when openjamming a hand like A2o, all the longterm money you are making is from getting folds, since u will somewhat break even over the long run when called.in other words, in general (readless) openjamming at 13bbs will be the best option. So you would need reads to be sure minraise calling is better. i do disagree with rypac about liking minraising with the intention to actually see a flop. its just too hard, even against a passive player, and openjamming will bring near equal or better results. hope that helps JTS
JTS, I said "Another downside is that A2 doesn't flop incredibly well, so going into the flop you are effectively worse off than with a hand like JT or T9 even."I think that's literally all I said about seeing a flop. No reason to be afraid of a flop, but it's obviously not the best hand to see a flop with, so you have to take that into consideration.Hundrye/R-Quaresma made some good points about minraising in a private discussion that stemmed from a twoplustwo thread. He pointed out, that while A2o only has 51-52% equity against hands like JTs or 98s, it does a lot better against stuff like JTo or 97o (I believe 55% range). So minraise calling with those hands can better than open shoving against a wide 3bettor for those reasons (and obviously K2, Q2 type stuff, though in my experience that is more of a rare event).2Guns, when you limp and villain raises to 3x or shoves what do you do? You flop terribly in the first case and in the second case you have that same equity issue, and you're less priced in, with no immediate fold equity than you would be with a minraise. I agree that limping can be an effective strategy, but you need to know your opponent isn't going to likely attack your limps and that you don't have much fold equity with a minraise.
yeah i mightve put too much stress on reading this phrase "It's actually when your opponent is fairly tight and passive (in my mind) where you can minraise A2. In this situation there's little risk of 3bet shoving and there's fold equity with a simple minraise." in no way was i trying to say you are wrong. but the kind of opponent i like minraising A2 vs is the one that jams over SUPERWIDEideally one that only jams or folds and never calls would be the nuts, rather then someone who is tight and passive, because then u most likely have the idea in your mind already, to turn your hand into a bluff postflop, or 'bluff' him into folding hands that have OK equity against you. I think these are all fine, i just wanted to say i dont think a tight passive opponent is the best to minraise against, id rather minraise vs someone who rejams wide, and loose. and almost never flats. if he flats a big percentage of the time, i think openjamming will be best, hence for me it seems at least, that i prefer openjamming the majority of the time, unless with reads, then id prefer a minraise/call.Limping here is something that will very rarely be good, if ever. just my 2 cents JTS
Well I'm probably minraising 100% of my range against a guy that folds to my MR often.Some hands like 22 and 33 I would still likely open shove, but I think otherwise I'm pretty much open minraising most of my range there, for the immediate fold equity.I'm open to there being a better play with some sort of mixed strategy, but we're talking about a tight (and passive) opponent.If he flats a majority of the time open jamming isn't always best though, imagine a guy that just plays really obvious and weak in general, flatting every MR. You just bet once or twice often to huge EV.I do agree about the "shove or fold" guy perhaps being best to MR against, since the call is generally not particularly advantageous to A2o.