I checked his stats and I am sure this is possible because he plays deep stack HU sng's. Maybe he uses the cowboymarco strategy of timing down all the time to make the opponents frustrated, so that they start spewing chips and he can take advantage of that by playing back with monsters.
We get these threads a few times a year.Deepstacks, as r0n13 mentions, are usually the game structure that explains why. Sometimes it's even something like 2-7 Draw or a game like that where you can build a huge edge.
I saw the guy play; he only plays deep stack no-blind increase and times out every single decision. Many people accidently reg for these instead of regging for regular speed or turbos. Since it would take over 6 hours to actually finish the game against that kind of player most people just give up before the end because they don't want to spend 6 hours of their life playing a $15 HUSNG. His play is quite bad and if you have a whole day free and don't tilt easily you can probably have an edge against him.
Yea, he just exploits a weakness in the system (or primarily does* I don't want to say these players don't have skills, they do, but they get a lot more return for their skillset than they would if Stars cared more about these).If people care, you should really lobby Stars to get rid of the no blind increase or label them extremely clear in multiple places with a warning before registering "Warning, this game has no blind increases and may take up to 2 or 3 hours" and also perhaps start warning the players that time down (to be honest, Stars has already warned players if their opponents complain, so nothing is probably wrong in that regard currently).But yea, these games just take a lot of money out of the player pool without the right amount of skill (time, energy, focus, consistency, hard work) required for the amount of money. Kind of like how heads up cash boomed then quickly died down, you just can't sustain a super high edge game where you don't punish players for waiting for terrible opponents to sit.
According to SS, he plays regular speeds and those are a much higher skill format than turbos or STs so stuff like this is not as out there as you think. We had a player on Bodog, abrafo, with 20% ROI at $100 regular speeds over several years. With that in mind, 30% at $15s is impressive but not shocking (with game selection). If the excellent video makers on this site chose to play low stakes regular speeds with decent game selection, you'd probably see ROIs ~15-25%. However, their focus is on challenging themselves to reach new heights and higher hourlies. BTW: If he really just plays NBI and times out every hand, that's pretty dirty and pathetic. I think PS should get rid of NBI and just offer 200bb regular speed HUSNGs. NBI doesn't fulfill any special need and you're better off just playing cash.
Saw a random play him and get a 3-1 chip lead after 4 hours before losing a big hand and getting back to even. inlevwetrust was also using chat to tilt him as much as possible by insulting his play and calling him a fish. Many "top" regs at the $15 NBI do this; the most difficult part is to get the lobby before another reg. I'm surprised Stars hasn't done anything about this. These people take a lot of money off casual players while pissing them off without generating much rake. It's a lose/lose situation for both Stars, recreational players and "real" regs.
Abrafo does that too lol. It's bad for the long-term health of the games and also hurts poker's image. I'd really rather PS just eliminated NBI as it seems to be heavily abused.
Since you mention it i just logged on to Stars and see there's a 60$ NBI. The Reg has 2k chips the non reg has 1k. And in the chat the reg says. "You give up? Surrender?" then a few hands later "Give Up. You Can't Beat me" reg is called POMatty. I don't see the point in these games. If he's one tabling and the games are taking up to and over an hour Stars ain't making much rake. And if the 'spirit' of the game is to stealth the other guy out...I don't see the value in these games.
Email support@pokerstars.com and tell them exactly what you wrote here.Feedback is exactly why they eliminated the 4 man husngs (and that was casual player fallacy, not fact).
I might do that actually. He actually said worse stuff than that. Calling the dude a 'mthr fker' and stuff. I dipped in and out of the match and in about 30 or so hands the biggest pot was 12bbs.Eventually he said in chat. 'All in next hand, let the software decide.'I almost lost the will to live watching the match. God knows what they must be like to play. The Poker equivalent of Chinese Water Torture or sommat.
They didn't eliminate 4mans, it's just that few regs want to play them anymore since teaming was such an advantage in terms of variance (not in terms of ROI/edge tho), and regs are what starts those games at mid/high stakes. NBIs seem quite resilient unfortunately, but hopefully if enough people keep pestering Stars about it they'll give in.
It's been discussed, but I'm not sure the combination of patience and effectiveness would prevail here.You'd have to spend a lot of time, and those guys would still play when you were sleeping/stopped sitting them.Stars will remove them if players want it to happen, so I think spending a few hours getting everybody that agrees about these to remove them or put a "these games can take 2 hours" pop up on them would be more effective long term.
I got two replies. One of which was a standard reply and the other was 50% standard and someone had actually written some unique text. Said they'd looked at the chat records and the appropriate action had been taken. So they took my email more as a chat abuse thing, rather than someone abusing the parameters of the game to intimidate the opponents into giving up...not on the ground of skill, but on the grounds of "I ain't going anywhere...and you have a life to live."This reminds me of a fight i saw at school between two girls, they both had a hand wrapped around the others nose, they'd stopped hitting each other and they were locked in this stalemate for ages squeezing the other's nose. Like most people i never walk away from a girl-girl fight, but this went on forever and i walked away. I was ten years old though and was hungry. EDIT: Actually looking at the pertinent ttext I can see that it's pretty much standard response. "I have reviewed the chat logs and have taken the appropriate actions.In situations where you encounter foul language, we have a Chat Moderator program on many PokerStars tables. To page a Chat Moderator, click on the Dealer Chip Tray or "Options" button at the top of the table, and choose the "Call Moderator" button. Enter a short description of the chat problem in the box, and click OK."
Makes perfect sense. Chat abuse is an issue that has to be resolved by a moderator or the support.While the time bank 'abusers' do something which bothers you, they act totaly within the rules. So, the question is not; is what they are doing illegal (because it is not) but: shall we change / cancel the game type. As long as they are not getting hundreds of claims to do so, they will not even look into what the problem is, because after only 2 minutes they will know: players are acting within the rules.About the time argument; maybe he is not even sitting in front of the computer. Basically letting table ninja run with deactivating "auto click time bank" and activating "automatically click i'm back for tournaments" will be enough. After a couple of hours the player will leave the table / be offline at least and you will win simply by the auto fold function from pokerstars folding your (offline) opponent hands. Imagine; you could do this with 24 tables running and just go to sleep. Well. Basically you could open 50 tables and / or even let SNG Sensei open / join them for you while you are in school / at work / whatsoever.Seems kinda simular to boting tough ^^.
A 32% ROI is not uncommon for 4-man SNG's (as long as you are not constantly joined by other good players).If you are a good player who achieves a 60% win rate against random players, then you should win 36% of your 4-man SNG's, and if you can get a steady flow of action, you actually show a better rate of profit vs. singles at the same match win rate. Now ,this dosent take into effect the positive value that rematches have since you can exploit an opponent easier the more games you play him, and there is also the reduced rakeback, and the down time when your waiting for the other match to conclude. But the raw numbers would be for example.Based on 60% win rate vs. random opponent at PokerStars4 man regular speed 100 $100 buy ins, $382.76 for a win. 36/100 wins = $10,000 buy ins, $13,779 return $3779 profit for ROI of 37.79%2 man regular speed 160 $100 buy ins, $191.38 for a win 96/160 wins = $16,000 buy ins, $18,372 return $2372 profit for ROI of 14.83%If you're wondering why I compared 100 4 mans to 160 2 mans, it is because a 60% win rate vs. a random oponent means you should play 160 total matches when playing 100 4 mans.Naturally, games fill much much quicker in 2 mans, and the rematches dont exist in 4 mans, so the comparison is somewhat flawed, but just looking at the raw data, 4 mans give a better return because you're paying less rake per game.This is why bookies/sports books pay only 2.65-1 on 2 team parlays. If they took the same juice on parlays that they do on -110/-110 flats, they'd pay out 2.82-1. But they pay 2.65 so you pay the single game juice for each game instead of once.
He must play 4man sng :)
It just seems impossible. Its like hes not being hit på variance.
I checked his stats and I am sure this is possible because he plays deep stack HU sng's. Maybe he uses the cowboymarco strategy of timing down all the time to make the opponents frustrated, so that they start spewing chips and he can take advantage of that by playing back with monsters.
We get these threads a few times a year.Deepstacks, as r0n13 mentions, are usually the game structure that explains why. Sometimes it's even something like 2-7 Draw or a game like that where you can build a huge edge.
I saw the guy play; he only plays deep stack no-blind increase and times out every single decision. Many people accidently reg for these instead of regging for regular speed or turbos. Since it would take over 6 hours to actually finish the game against that kind of player most people just give up before the end because they don't want to spend 6 hours of their life playing a $15 HUSNG. His play is quite bad and if you have a whole day free and don't tilt easily you can probably have an edge against him.
Yea, he just exploits a weakness in the system (or primarily does* I don't want to say these players don't have skills, they do, but they get a lot more return for their skillset than they would if Stars cared more about these).If people care, you should really lobby Stars to get rid of the no blind increase or label them extremely clear in multiple places with a warning before registering "Warning, this game has no blind increases and may take up to 2 or 3 hours" and also perhaps start warning the players that time down (to be honest, Stars has already warned players if their opponents complain, so nothing is probably wrong in that regard currently).But yea, these games just take a lot of money out of the player pool without the right amount of skill (time, energy, focus, consistency, hard work) required for the amount of money. Kind of like how heads up cash boomed then quickly died down, you just can't sustain a super high edge game where you don't punish players for waiting for terrible opponents to sit.
According to SS, he plays regular speeds and those are a much higher skill format than turbos or STs so stuff like this is not as out there as you think. We had a player on Bodog, abrafo, with 20% ROI at $100 regular speeds over several years. With that in mind, 30% at $15s is impressive but not shocking (with game selection). If the excellent video makers on this site chose to play low stakes regular speeds with decent game selection, you'd probably see ROIs ~15-25%. However, their focus is on challenging themselves to reach new heights and higher hourlies. BTW: If he really just plays NBI and times out every hand, that's pretty dirty and pathetic. I think PS should get rid of NBI and just offer 200bb regular speed HUSNGs. NBI doesn't fulfill any special need and you're better off just playing cash.
Coaching page + Blog
Saw a random play him and get a 3-1 chip lead after 4 hours before losing a big hand and getting back to even. inlevwetrust was also using chat to tilt him as much as possible by insulting his play and calling him a fish. Many "top" regs at the $15 NBI do this; the most difficult part is to get the lobby before another reg. I'm surprised Stars hasn't done anything about this. These people take a lot of money off casual players while pissing them off without generating much rake. It's a lose/lose situation for both Stars, recreational players and "real" regs.
Abrafo does that too lol. It's bad for the long-term health of the games and also hurts poker's image. I'd really rather PS just eliminated NBI as it seems to be heavily abused.
Coaching page + Blog
Since you mention it i just logged on to Stars and see there's a 60$ NBI. The Reg has 2k chips the non reg has 1k. And in the chat the reg says. "You give up? Surrender?" then a few hands later "Give Up. You Can't Beat me" reg is called POMatty. I don't see the point in these games. If he's one tabling and the games are taking up to and over an hour Stars ain't making much rake. And if the 'spirit' of the game is to stealth the other guy out...I don't see the value in these games.
Email support@pokerstars.com and tell them exactly what you wrote here.Feedback is exactly why they eliminated the 4 man husngs (and that was casual player fallacy, not fact).
I might do that actually. He actually said worse stuff than that. Calling the dude a 'mthr fker' and stuff. I dipped in and out of the match and in about 30 or so hands the biggest pot was 12bbs.Eventually he said in chat. 'All in next hand, let the software decide.'I almost lost the will to live watching the match. God knows what they must be like to play. The Poker equivalent of Chinese Water Torture or sommat.
They didn't eliminate 4mans, it's just that few regs want to play them anymore since teaming was such an advantage in terms of variance (not in terms of ROI/edge tho), and regs are what starts those games at mid/high stakes. NBIs seem quite resilient unfortunately, but hopefully if enough people keep pestering Stars about it they'll give in.
Sorry, I meant eliminated teaming in 4 mans, not 4 mans, my bad.
Some good HUSNG players should spent some time sitting these guys at every stake and just own their soul. They might stop :D
It's been discussed, but I'm not sure the combination of patience and effectiveness would prevail here.You'd have to spend a lot of time, and those guys would still play when you were sleeping/stopped sitting them.Stars will remove them if players want it to happen, so I think spending a few hours getting everybody that agrees about these to remove them or put a "these games can take 2 hours" pop up on them would be more effective long term.
I got two replies. One of which was a standard reply and the other was 50% standard and someone had actually written some unique text. Said they'd looked at the chat records and the appropriate action had been taken. So they took my email more as a chat abuse thing, rather than someone abusing the parameters of the game to intimidate the opponents into giving up...not on the ground of skill, but on the grounds of "I ain't going anywhere...and you have a life to live."This reminds me of a fight i saw at school between two girls, they both had a hand wrapped around the others nose, they'd stopped hitting each other and they were locked in this stalemate for ages squeezing the other's nose. Like most people i never walk away from a girl-girl fight, but this went on forever and i walked away. I was ten years old though and was hungry. EDIT: Actually looking at the pertinent ttext I can see that it's pretty much standard response. "I have reviewed the chat logs and have taken the appropriate actions.In situations where you encounter foul language, we have a Chat Moderator program on many PokerStars tables. To page a Chat Moderator, click on the Dealer Chip Tray or "Options" button at the top of the table, and choose the "Call Moderator" button. Enter a short description of the chat problem in the box, and click OK."
Makes perfect sense. Chat abuse is an issue that has to be resolved by a moderator or the support.While the time bank 'abusers' do something which bothers you, they act totaly within the rules. So, the question is not; is what they are doing illegal (because it is not) but: shall we change / cancel the game type. As long as they are not getting hundreds of claims to do so, they will not even look into what the problem is, because after only 2 minutes they will know: players are acting within the rules.About the time argument; maybe he is not even sitting in front of the computer. Basically letting table ninja run with deactivating "auto click time bank" and activating "automatically click i'm back for tournaments" will be enough. After a couple of hours the player will leave the table / be offline at least and you will win simply by the auto fold function from pokerstars folding your (offline) opponent hands. Imagine; you could do this with 24 tables running and just go to sleep. Well. Basically you could open 50 tables and / or even let SNG Sensei open / join them for you while you are in school / at work / whatsoever.Seems kinda simular to boting tough ^^.
Hi.
A 32% ROI is not uncommon for 4-man SNG's (as long as you are not constantly joined by other good players).If you are a good player who achieves a 60% win rate against random players, then you should win 36% of your 4-man SNG's, and if you can get a steady flow of action, you actually show a better rate of profit vs. singles at the same match win rate. Now ,this dosent take into effect the positive value that rematches have since you can exploit an opponent easier the more games you play him, and there is also the reduced rakeback, and the down time when your waiting for the other match to conclude. But the raw numbers would be for example.Based on 60% win rate vs. random opponent at PokerStars4 man regular speed 100 $100 buy ins, $382.76 for a win. 36/100 wins = $10,000 buy ins, $13,779 return $3779 profit for ROI of 37.79%2 man regular speed 160 $100 buy ins, $191.38 for a win 96/160 wins = $16,000 buy ins, $18,372 return $2372 profit for ROI of 14.83%If you're wondering why I compared 100 4 mans to 160 2 mans, it is because a 60% win rate vs. a random oponent means you should play 160 total matches when playing 100 4 mans.Naturally, games fill much much quicker in 2 mans, and the rematches dont exist in 4 mans, so the comparison is somewhat flawed, but just looking at the raw data, 4 mans give a better return because you're paying less rake per game.This is why bookies/sports books pay only 2.65-1 on 2 team parlays. If they took the same juice on parlays that they do on -110/-110 flats, they'd pay out 2.82-1. But they pay 2.65 so you pay the single game juice for each game instead of once.