Around 09:15, you give an example with an A2 hand.Vs an unknown here, i'm not sure I buy that 4betting all-in on the flop is the most profitable here. I mean, obviously it's fine to get it in here, but not much worse than us is calling the jam, and there are no scare cards really. Is it mainly positional concerns that make it a jam here? PS: Is there going to be a vid 1 thread?
That's a great point actually. When i made that example I was trying to get across the point about the check raise sizing and just picked the first hand I saw from my hh that made that point, I agree with you though, we do significantly better vs all of his worse hands if we just flat in this spot, and leave our opponent room to hang himself on the turn.I will open a vid one thread now.
A mistake, I orignially didn't have KJs and KQo in my nai 3b range, then after some time on fast track whilst making the videos hokie convinced me 3betting thsose other hands readless was the way to go to. I must have forgot to alter the flat to minraise range.
Quick question about donking in limped pots. Once a player has seen us lead our air a couple times, what value hands would you add in to balance that range? Top pair? Or hands that have good equity? (2 overs, gutshot+over etc.)
@nodeg, we should be tighening our range gradually when facing bigger sizing, so when we hit 120 we aren't going to be flatting a very wide range, mostly broadway hands, something like k9+, Qt+, JT+, with a little wider in the suited department. @am_man, if I was facing a complete fish I may continue with my strategy as standard expecting him to not adjust at all. Against a more competent player I would think it would be advisable to mix in value range if they have seen you donk mostly air (and have got to showdown enough times to draw that conclusion). Bearing in mind though you don't want to be donking these value hands if your opponent is really likely to bet when checked to (unless as a result of you leading air he is now likely to raise or something). Like I say in the video these strategies are for completely readless situations and it doesn't take much to justify a change in them, and in this particular instances adjustments can vary a lot because it will depend on how your opponent adjusts (maybe he is now raising donks or calling down wider, both appropriate adjustments from him but each require a different counter adjustment from us).
Hi,this was a great condensed video with precise information.I picked up a large amount of things where your approach is way better.I still want to request some things supplementing the ranges/lines you provided.Namely can you share with us some more readless average population frequencies/ranges you based your ranges/lines on?Although with several hours effort in CardrunnersEV I probably could reverse engineer the frequencies/ranges you based yourself to some extent; it would be still great to see some more frequencies/ranges you based yourself on to ensure I understand the context instantly better how you came up with your ranges/lines.Thank you in advance. ieopp(onent's) BB flop donk%/rangeopp BB check/fold flop %/rangeopp bb check/call flop%/rangeopp BB check/raise flop%/rangeopp SB fold %/rangeopp SB limp %/rangeopp SB open shove %/rangeopp SB MR %/rangeopp SB 3x %/rangeopp SB cbet%/range...
I have another question.I just want to make sure I understood your correctly.Your MR/call table from SB.Did you constructed it for BB raising to t90 so you as SB have to call 50 more chips to see a flop?Or did you constructed it for BB raising to t130 so you as SB have to call 90 more chips to see a flop?Thank you.
In answer to you second question its a raise TO t90, so 50 more chips to call, our flatting range to a 3bet of 130 is almost non existant.The average populations statistics were found in my own bastard way of playing raound with poker tracker filters so I won't be able to fill any of those stat requests. Pokertracker will let you view all the hands from your perspective but not all hands from all your opponents perspectives, just each opponent individually (so each avg pop stat takes me 5 mins to come up with, and that's is if it's even possible.) As much as those percentages are nice,I can guarentee trying to reverse engineer ranges based on %'s i give you would be a futile line of study for the most part, and you would inmrpve your game far more from other lines of study (for example using pokertracker to find your own ranges, and spots where they may not be optimal)
Although I can agree that the other ways of studying you suggest can likely improve me more efficient time-wise.I want to point out that studying the % way also has a clear advantage.By firstly assuming that the % represent the best possible hands; you can come up with a range that is almost always correct to use against that %; with exception of rare cases like middling hands from which the eq can change alot depending on opp range.By then trying to make the % more realistic, ie by using dBase, often the % does not represent always the best possible hands and such you can add/replace hands to increase your EV.At that point you know the core strategy in case your reads suggest opp uses the best possible hands.At that point you know the standard strategy in case you are readless and use the avg realisic ranges.Then you can try to make the % even a bit more weaker to represent bluff heavy, very weak ranges.At that point you know how to play more correctly in that case.
The problem with his approach is that the assumption that the %'s always represent the top of ranges, this is undoubtedly not the case. Consider for example any strategy where your opponent is polarising his ranges, this would leave your calculations redundant and may lead to you developing a strategy that is tighter than it should be.
Just that with that average populations minraise range and cbet range in this spot 5x doesn't make up a large enough percentage of the range to want us to play cautiously (Also lower flops implies it is less likely our opponent hit top pair, for example with an ace high flop it is more likely opponent hits top pair because he will take every ace to the flop, whereas some 5x will be folded - as a result the lower the flop the lower the likelihood your opponent has hit top pair, but these differences are marginal)
I got an question about why I though c/shoving is optimal with a hand like T5 on JT4 with a flush draw.The reason I think a check shove is the best option is because there are close to no worse value hands that are opponent can come along with that we are missing out on value from if we make a small raise and I dont think we get rebluffed in this spot often enough to justify a smaller sizing to induce spew. The range our opponent can feasibly call an all in with is any flush draw, any oesd, gutshot and two overs, top pair and second pair, which for the most part will be a calling range to any c/r sizing (so why take some when you can take it all!).
Hey chad. Another question about raise/call ranges. You have hands like A4o and K3s in there, what are you looking to flop with those and how aggressive are you playing non-TP flopped hands? Like if you call a 3bet with K3s and the flop is something like 39Jr? Or A4o on 45K flop? Are you trying to get it in on the flop or just call one cbet and give up?Also what about gutshots, for example K7o in 3bet pot on 659r flop? Thanks.
Okay, well this is more a general question, but you also covered it in your vid, and its a concept thats very much puzzling me. Its about 3b/shoving first hand. There you say, we often end up in a coinflip situation when shoving small pairs, and make money from fold equity. So, lets take hands 22 and 33 as a great example. If villain doesnt fold to shove, decent amount of time I will lose the coinflip. Actually, whatever unknown villain decides to call with, I think it will almost always be eV+ for him. All stronger pairs crush us, and even if he is lag maniac who dares to call with JTo+, he will still have slightly better equity then us iirc.So whats the point in winning all the chips with fold equity, if it simply cannot make up for all those time I've lost my whole stack to villain, and therefore my initial buyin? The only thing I can see there is increased variance.
Pretty big topic to cover in a nutshell, and its all going to be a board texture and opponents bet sizing. The key thing to remember in these spots is we call preflop because we believe it to be +ev based on the value we get when we do flop hands, so that doesn't translate to spewing with marginal hands because of big pot to stack ratio.In the examples you gave the k7o is a snap ship, I think there are a lot of boards you can happily ship gutshots on when they hit your percieved range more than your opponents. In the other examples I would be calling a half pot bet on both tables likely, I'd be less inclined to give up on the 45K to barrels than the 39J, but to be honest prob give both up to turn bets or maybe even hefty flop bets. People wont take this 3bet bet bet line with complete air too often, so I wouldnt worry about making stands with anything too marginal postflop, like I said, the real value from our preflop call is more about the top pairs we do hit.
@nekrogovner, In every spot in poker when we are under the impression we have a guarenteed conflip then we should really be trying to make our opponent fold, this is the case even more when we have a hand that is very difficult to play optimally postflop. The fact is most people will fold a lot of hands they are right to call with, any suited connector type hand all has enough equity to justify stacking off vs 22 but when you put your whole stack in they are forced to fold these hands which makes more net money for you, and if they do call you with a bad hand that has great equity that is just unlucky, all you can do is hope for a rematch where you have a sick read that they will raise call junk.... you really think in the long run you will be losing money to this dude?Also the chips you win do make up for the times you are called by overpairs assuming a somewhat logical calling range for your opponent (so if they raise call 65% of hands and only call pairs and a7+ then shipping is still easily the best play).
Chadders: "Also the chips you win do make up for the times you are called by overpairs assuming a somewhat logical calling range for your opponent (so if they raise call 65% of hands and only call pairs and a7+ then shipping is still easily the best play)."See, this is what im talking about.So, lets say, villain minraises to 40, I ship my 22, he folds, so i pick up his 40 chips. And lets say this happens 10 times, with 10 different villains. Then 11th time, some 11th villain calls me off with 66 and i lose my stack. So how does picking up 40 villains chips 10 times in 10 different games that have gone in god knows what direction justify for losing my stack preflop in that one game?I would understand if that was a cash game, but in SNG I just cant wrap my mind around it.
@olistr, I wouldn't be inclined to donk that hand readless as I don't think you will get played back at with air often enough. In genereal I think the avg population will cbet a wider range than they will call a bet with, and if they are not cbetting their ace high type stuff it is likely with the intention of calling a turn bet on a dry turn card and so you dont lmuch potential value from ace high type hands that may have called a donk bet but not made a cbet.@nekgrovner, when you reg for a hyper and sit down the chips have a direct cash value proportional to the prize pool, so any calculations from a hucash game respect will also hold true in a husng respect (although this is not true for 3 handed or greater poker). I would reccomend looking into some 3bet shove calculations, there is a bunch of software and 2p2 or husng threads out there which can show you how to calculate the profitability of a 3bet shove given some specific variables. If you play around with these you will get a much better idea of not only why the standard shoves are so standard, but also the kind of spots where you can alter your 3bet shoving range dependant on your opponents tendancies. Gettin to grips with these calculations is an essential part of becoming the best hyper turbo player you can be.
Yo Mr.Chadders,Was just wondering, do you incorporate a 3-bet bluff range into this first hand readless situation?Obviously some hands would have better expectation to 3-bet non-ai bluff than to flat (at the lower end of our flatting range/ or just outside probably), so wondered what your thoughts were on this and what hands you would consider doing this with? Cheers
^ This has been discussed at length in fast track and there has never really been a solid conclusion because nobody ever has the sample to conclude a predicted expectation based on historical expectation, I think not having one absolutely readless is best (and below 60's would ALWAYS advocate this strategy to anyone asking about it specifically, mers does too). When you are in a readless situation where you assume your opponent to be a reg then it's a different question (in genereal I think you should always have some nai3b bluff range against a reg).I think if it was optimal to have a nai3b bluff range it would be a small one, made of weak kx/qx hands.
Ok, thanks a lot for that reply, I think you may be right at the lower levels, people find it harder to hit the "other" button, and then you are playing inflated pots oop with a marginal holding, and the bastard just won't fold bottom pair :) Cheers
Hi chadders!In addition to am_man question - KQo KQs KJs also in flat to 3x range.Is it another error or we flating those hands facing 3x instead of 3-beting or 3-bet shoving because we assume that 3x represent stronger hand?Thanks!
That would indeed be another mistake on my half not adjusting the flat to 3x hand range after adjusting the 3b range, having said that I would indeed be more inclined to flat these hands when facing a 3x instead of 3betting, the reason being exactly what you said, the villain on average will have a stronger range in that spot.
hi sir, ty for the quality videocan you explain me why you add KQss KJss KQo to your non three bet all in range whereas you three bet shove AKss AQss Ajss AKo AQoi dont get it regards
^ chadders must not have seen your message yet, buthands like KQss KJss etc play better post-flop and dominate a lot of your opponents range so you'll be getting it in good a lothands like AK AQ don't play particular well post-flop, and any A is usually a scare card on the flop, making it better to shovealso in AI pots kq kj are obviously much worse than ak aq hands since kq kj hands don't fair well against Ax hands which is a bigger part of an AI rangehope that helps :p
Sorry I missed that one, takigod got it. people in genereal minrcall too wide in the Ax deparement so we are happy to just open shove are strong Ax hands vs the average population, with the Kx stuff we get more value from the ranges we dominate by making non all in 3bets.
In your video you mentioned that we check raise all top pair. in your example on the dry board we want to get it in because we have a decent kicker. But what is we have a 97o on the 952 rainbow am i the only one to think get it in is speewy?
You advocate check shoving draws without showdown value, does that mean we should always check shove a hand like 96ss on TK4ss readless, looks a bit spewy to me.Or am I missing something.
The reason it's profitable is because of the average populations frequencies, we estimate around a 55-60% open freq and about the same frequency for cbetting, so vs our opponents total range in this spot some form of check raise will always be best. Once we check raise if we get shoved on we are gettin it in, so since we know we are gettin our money in, we decide to do it in a way that maximises our opponents likelihood of folding out any better hands that our opponent may have (this normally involves betting more chips). Vs a reg you may be more inclined to make a non allin c/r as part of a more balanced strategy, but vs your average readless opponent a check shove is probably going to be best because we want to be certain to be the last agressor (for we almost certainly dont have the best hand), with a hand like A9ss in this spot (if we did somehow flat pre!), a non all in c/r would have more value since we then beat any 3b bluff range our opponent may have.
Hi Chadder, congrats for the pack.I have a question here, I'm having troubles to understand your reasoning at 14:23 K8s hand on 6hTs9s board.You are saying that donk betting is the optimal decision because the opponent will be checking back some 9's , 6's even A high. I agree that some will check those back but all of these are better hands than ours and all (Ahigh maybe not) will call a donk bet.Besides those hands, he will call with a T, fd, overcards, oesd, gutshot. You are saying that bet/folding is the proper thing to do and I agree that if we do donk bet then we should fold to a raise.Also, you are saying that opp's flating range is not that strong for calling multiple barrels which I find it hard to believe as :-6s will fold but in most cases I don't see 9s folding (9s will mostly fold when 2 overcards will come, straight will complete or flush disregarding the other card among the 9 that opp is holding which is relevant as there are less 92,93,94 in his range).-a T will call all the way more often than folding.-it is very difficult to put your opp on either fd,oesd,overcards,gutshot (all these will call flop) and if a turn comes an overcard(besides K), a club, 7 or 8 (24 cards in total out of 45) then more often than not (in my view) hits his calling range.-when get called on flop after we donk, our outs to improve by river are 7s, ks and backdoor flush or str8(j,q) which makes about 37-39% equity. Half of that to improve on turn.Taking all these into consideration, I really don't see why donking/multi barreling is the proper play in that spot. I maybe wrong, but I want to understand it.Thanks!
What exactly is your question? He explain why he does take this certain action at around minute 13 of the same video. Did that not help you?Sure, the board is not the optimum for us, but the question is not "is donk bet good" but "is this donk bet the best of my choices?". On a board like this vs unknown we should have plenty of FE and against a 3bet we fold anyways. What other action would you prefer / chose and why is that?
That is my question Barrin, I really thought it looks clear from my post.I know he explains how to play gutshots, seen it but my question is on that particular example.We have 1 over and backdoor straight(besides gutshot) and flush, it's similar to 2 overcards.If he calls with 9 or T then we have ~40% equity, we're ahead of almost all gutshots,fd,oesd+fold equity.We get called very often on the flop and most turn cards will hit opponent's range. And also, I don;t know what percent but there are quite many players that 3bet shove any draw there and we have to fold if we donk.In my opinion, check/raise(shove) is the proper play (as situation 1 in gutshots with 2 overs).What do you think?
Hey guys, sorry I haven't already got back to you, I was on holiday.Rgarding the k8 hand, a lot of the value in donking (that is with the intention of folding to a raise) and multi barreling comes from the fact that on this board, the average population is mostly inclined to raise all of there top pair hands, which is not the case on a board like t63 - this ability to be able to cap our opponents range (on average, im sure every now and then someone will flat aces to your donk in that spot!) is what make multiple barreling so profitable. With a range capped at 9x, any overcard on the turn (jack+), will make it very difficult for your opponent to call for stacks with most of his range in that spot. A check shove on this board is undoubtedly the worst play, a check call and a check raise non allin are much better, the problem with a check shove is that your are so toast vs your opponents bet/call range that you will almost never make up with it in profit you make from your opponents bet/fold range.
Thaks for the answer Chadders, I hope you had a nice holiday :)I still have more to say regarding this besides the reasons above.1."the average population is mostly inclined to raise all of there top pair hands" true but besides TP, they will raise some draws too, do you agree on that? we're ahead against most draws so sometimes (not most of the times) we get semi-bluffed when raised and we have ~39% vs TP.2. "this ability to be able to cap our opponents range (on average, im sure every now and then someone will flat aces to your donk in that spot!) is what make multiple barreling so profitable. With a range capped at 9x, any overcard on the turn (jack+), will make it very difficult for your opponent to call for stacks with most of his range in that spot." regarding this, I don't understand why are you so sure that by him calling a donk we are capping his range at 9x. IMO we are capping his range at 9x, 6x and any kind of draw and more often than not he will have a draw rather than a pair(random math). And don't forget that he minraised preflop so we can exclude some 4high combos(less air). I see it the other way around, any J on turn will improve his equity more often than not assuming I am right about his range (random mid-high cards in general).I thought about c/c in the first place but I don't like it as we are making choices more difficult onlater streets being shortstacked. Regarding c/NAIr I agree is better as it's easier for him to shove over with all his draws(TP will shove anyway, most of 9x and some 6x), I didn't say check/shove is the best here, in fact I agree it's the worst play as we are losing a lot of value on the turn as if he calls a c/r then we can exclude the nut hands and we get a lot of fold equity to a turn bet.Thinking better about this, I see barelling as the best play but not with donking but by c/NAIr the flop to get even more value.This issue is strong related on how the average population plays its draws in that spot.Looking forward for your feedback.
hey, nice stuff... I have a general question about how to play the first hand. Do you really mean the FIRST hand or can I use this strategy every time if i have exactly 25BB (blind level 1 - maybe in hand 5, if I have 25bb) thanks
Hi Chadders, great videos got a few questions:1) What if villain non 4bets us when we 3b KQo, KJs or KQs first hand readless. Are we flatting or 5bet all-in? 2) In the High card and top pair slide: In the 942r example where Hero has K9o. You mentioned that we could bet slightly less than 120 will keep air in our perceived range a bit more. Do we need to worry about this at all in our first hand readless? 3) On the same slide, you c/r smaller with A2o than the K9o hand. Why is that? 4) in the Post flop play (bb) - limped pot slide: Why do we c/r top pair plus instead of leading? How much would this depend on board texture? Also c/r sizing? 5) Can we ever 3x JJ-AA for value in the first hand OTB? I read through most of this thread so apologies if some of those questions have already been covered. Thanks man!!
The range you give in the first hand readless to call open shove ( 44+, A8s+, A8o+, KQs), doens't it increase variance calling a 25bb open shove? I've notice that preflop from the SB we are really only open shoving 22 and 33, open shoving these hands is more profitable than min raising and cbetting?
i'm new at the hyper turbos.
Around 09:15, you give an example with an A2 hand.Vs an unknown here, i'm not sure I buy that 4betting all-in on the flop is the most profitable here. I mean, obviously it's fine to get it in here, but not much worse than us is calling the jam, and there are no scare cards really. Is it mainly positional concerns that make it a jam here? PS: Is there going to be a vid 1 thread?
That's a great point actually. When i made that example I was trying to get across the point about the check raise sizing and just picked the first hand I saw from my hh that made that point, I agree with you though, we do significantly better vs all of his worse hands if we just flat in this spot, and leave our opponent room to hang himself on the turn.I will open a vid one thread now.
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Small point but I notice you put KQo and KJs in both your flat to minraise and your NAI 3bet range. Any reason on that or just a mistake?
A mistake, I orignially didn't have KJs and KQo in my nai 3b range, then after some time on fast track whilst making the videos hokie convinced me 3betting thsose other hands readless was the way to go to. I must have forgot to alter the flat to minraise range.
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The range you provide for raise/calling a bet is for a raise to 90. What is a good readless range for calling a bet to 120?
Quick question about donking in limped pots. Once a player has seen us lead our air a couple times, what value hands would you add in to balance that range? Top pair? Or hands that have good equity? (2 overs, gutshot+over etc.)
@nodeg, we should be tighening our range gradually when facing bigger sizing, so when we hit 120 we aren't going to be flatting a very wide range, mostly broadway hands, something like k9+, Qt+, JT+, with a little wider in the suited department. @am_man, if I was facing a complete fish I may continue with my strategy as standard expecting him to not adjust at all. Against a more competent player I would think it would be advisable to mix in value range if they have seen you donk mostly air (and have got to showdown enough times to draw that conclusion). Bearing in mind though you don't want to be donking these value hands if your opponent is really likely to bet when checked to (unless as a result of you leading air he is now likely to raise or something). Like I say in the video these strategies are for completely readless situations and it doesn't take much to justify a change in them, and in this particular instances adjustments can vary a lot because it will depend on how your opponent adjusts (maybe he is now raising donks or calling down wider, both appropriate adjustments from him but each require a different counter adjustment from us).
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Hi,this was a great condensed video with precise information.I picked up a large amount of things where your approach is way better.I still want to request some things supplementing the ranges/lines you provided.Namely can you share with us some more readless average population frequencies/ranges you based your ranges/lines on?Although with several hours effort in CardrunnersEV I probably could reverse engineer the frequencies/ranges you based yourself to some extent; it would be still great to see some more frequencies/ranges you based yourself on to ensure I understand the context instantly better how you came up with your ranges/lines.Thank you in advance. ieopp(onent's) BB flop donk%/rangeopp BB check/fold flop %/rangeopp bb check/call flop%/rangeopp BB check/raise flop%/rangeopp SB fold %/rangeopp SB limp %/rangeopp SB open shove %/rangeopp SB MR %/rangeopp SB 3x %/rangeopp SB cbet%/range...
I have another question.I just want to make sure I understood your correctly.Your MR/call table from SB.Did you constructed it for BB raising to t90 so you as SB have to call 50 more chips to see a flop?Or did you constructed it for BB raising to t130 so you as SB have to call 90 more chips to see a flop?Thank you.
In answer to you second question its a raise TO t90, so 50 more chips to call, our flatting range to a 3bet of 130 is almost non existant.The average populations statistics were found in my own bastard way of playing raound with poker tracker filters so I won't be able to fill any of those stat requests. Pokertracker will let you view all the hands from your perspective but not all hands from all your opponents perspectives, just each opponent individually (so each avg pop stat takes me 5 mins to come up with, and that's is if it's even possible.) As much as those percentages are nice,I can guarentee trying to reverse engineer ranges based on %'s i give you would be a futile line of study for the most part, and you would inmrpve your game far more from other lines of study (for example using pokertracker to find your own ranges, and spots where they may not be optimal)
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Although I can agree that the other ways of studying you suggest can likely improve me more efficient time-wise.I want to point out that studying the % way also has a clear advantage.By firstly assuming that the % represent the best possible hands; you can come up with a range that is almost always correct to use against that %; with exception of rare cases like middling hands from which the eq can change alot depending on opp range.By then trying to make the % more realistic, ie by using dBase, often the % does not represent always the best possible hands and such you can add/replace hands to increase your EV.At that point you know the core strategy in case your reads suggest opp uses the best possible hands.At that point you know the standard strategy in case you are readless and use the avg realisic ranges.Then you can try to make the % even a bit more weaker to represent bluff heavy, very weak ranges.At that point you know how to play more correctly in that case.
The problem with his approach is that the assumption that the %'s always represent the top of ranges, this is undoubtedly not the case. Consider for example any strategy where your opponent is polarising his ranges, this would leave your calculations redundant and may lead to you developing a strategy that is tighter than it should be.
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Around 10:20 (A4o on 245r flop) you say that we don't expect many 5x in our opponents range. I'm having trouble understanding why is that?
Just that with that average populations minraise range and cbet range in this spot 5x doesn't make up a large enough percentage of the range to want us to play cautiously (Also lower flops implies it is less likely our opponent hit top pair, for example with an ace high flop it is more likely opponent hits top pair because he will take every ace to the flop, whereas some 5x will be folded - as a result the lower the flop the lower the likelihood your opponent has hit top pair, but these differences are marginal)
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I got an question about why I though c/shoving is optimal with a hand like T5 on JT4 with a flush draw.The reason I think a check shove is the best option is because there are close to no worse value hands that are opponent can come along with that we are missing out on value from if we make a small raise and I dont think we get rebluffed in this spot often enough to justify a smaller sizing to induce spew. The range our opponent can feasibly call an all in with is any flush draw, any oesd, gutshot and two overs, top pair and second pair, which for the most part will be a calling range to any c/r sizing (so why take some when you can take it all!).
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Hey chad. Another question about raise/call ranges. You have hands like A4o and K3s in there, what are you looking to flop with those and how aggressive are you playing non-TP flopped hands? Like if you call a 3bet with K3s and the flop is something like 39Jr? Or A4o on 45K flop? Are you trying to get it in on the flop or just call one cbet and give up?Also what about gutshots, for example K7o in 3bet pot on 659r flop? Thanks.
Okay, well this is more a general question, but you also covered it in your vid, and its a concept thats very much puzzling me. Its about 3b/shoving first hand. There you say, we often end up in a coinflip situation when shoving small pairs, and make money from fold equity. So, lets take hands 22 and 33 as a great example. If villain doesnt fold to shove, decent amount of time I will lose the coinflip. Actually, whatever unknown villain decides to call with, I think it will almost always be eV+ for him. All stronger pairs crush us, and even if he is lag maniac who dares to call with JTo+, he will still have slightly better equity then us iirc.So whats the point in winning all the chips with fold equity, if it simply cannot make up for all those time I've lost my whole stack to villain, and therefore my initial buyin? The only thing I can see there is increased variance.
Pretty big topic to cover in a nutshell, and its all going to be a board texture and opponents bet sizing. The key thing to remember in these spots is we call preflop because we believe it to be +ev based on the value we get when we do flop hands, so that doesn't translate to spewing with marginal hands because of big pot to stack ratio.In the examples you gave the k7o is a snap ship, I think there are a lot of boards you can happily ship gutshots on when they hit your percieved range more than your opponents. In the other examples I would be calling a half pot bet on both tables likely, I'd be less inclined to give up on the 45K to barrels than the 39J, but to be honest prob give both up to turn bets or maybe even hefty flop bets. People wont take this 3bet bet bet line with complete air too often, so I wouldnt worry about making stands with anything too marginal postflop, like I said, the real value from our preflop call is more about the top pairs we do hit.
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@nekrogovner, In every spot in poker when we are under the impression we have a guarenteed conflip then we should really be trying to make our opponent fold, this is the case even more when we have a hand that is very difficult to play optimally postflop. The fact is most people will fold a lot of hands they are right to call with, any suited connector type hand all has enough equity to justify stacking off vs 22 but when you put your whole stack in they are forced to fold these hands which makes more net money for you, and if they do call you with a bad hand that has great equity that is just unlucky, all you can do is hope for a rematch where you have a sick read that they will raise call junk.... you really think in the long run you will be losing money to this dude?Also the chips you win do make up for the times you are called by overpairs assuming a somewhat logical calling range for your opponent (so if they raise call 65% of hands and only call pairs and a7+ then shipping is still easily the best play).
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@chadders, about post 15 here, have u ever consider to donk this hand , why?:) why not?
Chadders: "Also the chips you win do make up for the times you are called by overpairs assuming a somewhat logical calling range for your opponent (so if they raise call 65% of hands and only call pairs and a7+ then shipping is still easily the best play)."See, this is what im talking about.So, lets say, villain minraises to 40, I ship my 22, he folds, so i pick up his 40 chips. And lets say this happens 10 times, with 10 different villains. Then 11th time, some 11th villain calls me off with 66 and i lose my stack. So how does picking up 40 villains chips 10 times in 10 different games that have gone in god knows what direction justify for losing my stack preflop in that one game?I would understand if that was a cash game, but in SNG I just cant wrap my mind around it.
@olistr, I wouldn't be inclined to donk that hand readless as I don't think you will get played back at with air often enough. In genereal I think the avg population will cbet a wider range than they will call a bet with, and if they are not cbetting their ace high type stuff it is likely with the intention of calling a turn bet on a dry turn card and so you dont lmuch potential value from ace high type hands that may have called a donk bet but not made a cbet.@nekgrovner, when you reg for a hyper and sit down the chips have a direct cash value proportional to the prize pool, so any calculations from a hucash game respect will also hold true in a husng respect (although this is not true for 3 handed or greater poker). I would reccomend looking into some 3bet shove calculations, there is a bunch of software and 2p2 or husng threads out there which can show you how to calculate the profitability of a 3bet shove given some specific variables. If you play around with these you will get a much better idea of not only why the standard shoves are so standard, but also the kind of spots where you can alter your 3bet shoving range dependant on your opponents tendancies. Gettin to grips with these calculations is an essential part of becoming the best hyper turbo player you can be.
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Yo Mr.Chadders,Was just wondering, do you incorporate a 3-bet bluff range into this first hand readless situation?Obviously some hands would have better expectation to 3-bet non-ai bluff than to flat (at the lower end of our flatting range/ or just outside probably), so wondered what your thoughts were on this and what hands you would consider doing this with? Cheers
^ This has been discussed at length in fast track and there has never really been a solid conclusion because nobody ever has the sample to conclude a predicted expectation based on historical expectation, I think not having one absolutely readless is best (and below 60's would ALWAYS advocate this strategy to anyone asking about it specifically, mers does too). When you are in a readless situation where you assume your opponent to be a reg then it's a different question (in genereal I think you should always have some nai3b bluff range against a reg).I think if it was optimal to have a nai3b bluff range it would be a small one, made of weak kx/qx hands.
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Ok, thanks a lot for that reply, I think you may be right at the lower levels, people find it harder to hit the "other" button, and then you are playing inflated pots oop with a marginal holding, and the bastard just won't fold bottom pair :) Cheers
Hi chadders!In addition to am_man question - KQo KQs KJs also in flat to 3x range.Is it another error or we flating those hands facing 3x instead of 3-beting or 3-bet shoving because we assume that 3x represent stronger hand?Thanks!
That would indeed be another mistake on my half not adjusting the flat to 3x hand range after adjusting the 3b range, having said that I would indeed be more inclined to flat these hands when facing a 3x instead of 3betting, the reason being exactly what you said, the villain on average will have a stronger range in that spot.
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hi sir, ty for the quality videocan you explain me why you add KQss KJss KQo to your non three bet all in range whereas you three bet shove AKss AQss Ajss AKo AQoi dont get it regards
^ chadders must not have seen your message yet, buthands like KQss KJss etc play better post-flop and dominate a lot of your opponents range so you'll be getting it in good a lothands like AK AQ don't play particular well post-flop, and any A is usually a scare card on the flop, making it better to shovealso in AI pots kq kj are obviously much worse than ak aq hands since kq kj hands don't fair well against Ax hands which is a bigger part of an AI rangehope that helps :p
Sorry I missed that one, takigod got it. people in genereal minrcall too wide in the Ax deparement so we are happy to just open shove are strong Ax hands vs the average population, with the Kx stuff we get more value from the ranges we dominate by making non all in 3bets.
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In your video you mentioned that we check raise all top pair. in your example on the dry board we want to get it in because we have a decent kicker. But what is we have a 97o on the 952 rainbow am i the only one to think get it in is speewy?
ty taikogod and chadd for the replies ;)
In merge structure where we start at 30bb vs 25bb of stars, what hands are we 3b jamming? PPs are prob the same but how many aces do we take out?
You advocate check shoving draws without showdown value, does that mean we should always check shove a hand like 96ss on TK4ss readless, looks a bit spewy to me.Or am I missing something.
The reason it's profitable is because of the average populations frequencies, we estimate around a 55-60% open freq and about the same frequency for cbetting, so vs our opponents total range in this spot some form of check raise will always be best. Once we check raise if we get shoved on we are gettin it in, so since we know we are gettin our money in, we decide to do it in a way that maximises our opponents likelihood of folding out any better hands that our opponent may have (this normally involves betting more chips). Vs a reg you may be more inclined to make a non allin c/r as part of a more balanced strategy, but vs your average readless opponent a check shove is probably going to be best because we want to be certain to be the last agressor (for we almost certainly dont have the best hand), with a hand like A9ss in this spot (if we did somehow flat pre!), a non all in c/r would have more value since we then beat any 3b bluff range our opponent may have.
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Thanks chadders for your comprehensive explanation, makes a lot of sense now!
Hi Chadder, congrats for the pack.I have a question here, I'm having troubles to understand your reasoning at 14:23 K8s hand on 6hTs9s board.You are saying that donk betting is the optimal decision because the opponent will be checking back some 9's , 6's even A high. I agree that some will check those back but all of these are better hands than ours and all (Ahigh maybe not) will call a donk bet.Besides those hands, he will call with a T, fd, overcards, oesd, gutshot. You are saying that bet/folding is the proper thing to do and I agree that if we do donk bet then we should fold to a raise.Also, you are saying that opp's flating range is not that strong for calling multiple barrels which I find it hard to believe as :-6s will fold but in most cases I don't see 9s folding (9s will mostly fold when 2 overcards will come, straight will complete or flush disregarding the other card among the 9 that opp is holding which is relevant as there are less 92,93,94 in his range).-a T will call all the way more often than folding.-it is very difficult to put your opp on either fd,oesd,overcards,gutshot (all these will call flop) and if a turn comes an overcard(besides K), a club, 7 or 8 (24 cards in total out of 45) then more often than not (in my view) hits his calling range.-when get called on flop after we donk, our outs to improve by river are 7s, ks and backdoor flush or str8(j,q) which makes about 37-39% equity. Half of that to improve on turn.Taking all these into consideration, I really don't see why donking/multi barreling is the proper play in that spot. I maybe wrong, but I want to understand it.Thanks!
Is Chadders still around? Ryan? Anyobdy?
What exactly is your question? He explain why he does take this certain action at around minute 13 of the same video. Did that not help you?Sure, the board is not the optimum for us, but the question is not "is donk bet good" but "is this donk bet the best of my choices?". On a board like this vs unknown we should have plenty of FE and against a 3bet we fold anyways. What other action would you prefer / chose and why is that?
Hi.
That is my question Barrin, I really thought it looks clear from my post.I know he explains how to play gutshots, seen it but my question is on that particular example.We have 1 over and backdoor straight(besides gutshot) and flush, it's similar to 2 overcards.If he calls with 9 or T then we have ~40% equity, we're ahead of almost all gutshots,fd,oesd+fold equity.We get called very often on the flop and most turn cards will hit opponent's range. And also, I don;t know what percent but there are quite many players that 3bet shove any draw there and we have to fold if we donk.In my opinion, check/raise(shove) is the proper play (as situation 1 in gutshots with 2 overs).What do you think?
Hey guys, sorry I haven't already got back to you, I was on holiday.Rgarding the k8 hand, a lot of the value in donking (that is with the intention of folding to a raise) and multi barreling comes from the fact that on this board, the average population is mostly inclined to raise all of there top pair hands, which is not the case on a board like t63 - this ability to be able to cap our opponents range (on average, im sure every now and then someone will flat aces to your donk in that spot!) is what make multiple barreling so profitable. With a range capped at 9x, any overcard on the turn (jack+), will make it very difficult for your opponent to call for stacks with most of his range in that spot. A check shove on this board is undoubtedly the worst play, a check call and a check raise non allin are much better, the problem with a check shove is that your are so toast vs your opponents bet/call range that you will almost never make up with it in profit you make from your opponents bet/fold range.
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Thaks for the answer Chadders, I hope you had a nice holiday :)I still have more to say regarding this besides the reasons above.1."the average population is mostly inclined to raise all of there top pair hands" true but besides TP, they will raise some draws too, do you agree on that? we're ahead against most draws so sometimes (not most of the times) we get semi-bluffed when raised and we have ~39% vs TP.2. "this ability to be able to cap our opponents range (on average, im sure every now and then someone will flat aces to your donk in that spot!) is what make multiple barreling so profitable. With a range capped at 9x, any overcard on the turn (jack+), will make it very difficult for your opponent to call for stacks with most of his range in that spot." regarding this, I don't understand why are you so sure that by him calling a donk we are capping his range at 9x. IMO we are capping his range at 9x, 6x and any kind of draw and more often than not he will have a draw rather than a pair(random math). And don't forget that he minraised preflop so we can exclude some 4high combos(less air). I see it the other way around, any J on turn will improve his equity more often than not assuming I am right about his range (random mid-high cards in general).I thought about c/c in the first place but I don't like it as we are making choices more difficult onlater streets being shortstacked. Regarding c/NAIr I agree is better as it's easier for him to shove over with all his draws(TP will shove anyway, most of 9x and some 6x), I didn't say check/shove is the best here, in fact I agree it's the worst play as we are losing a lot of value on the turn as if he calls a c/r then we can exclude the nut hands and we get a lot of fold equity to a turn bet.Thinking better about this, I see barelling as the best play but not with donking but by c/NAIr the flop to get even more value.This issue is strong related on how the average population plays its draws in that spot.Looking forward for your feedback.
Can somebody explain me what the colors mean in the char cause i dont have any explenation on them
suited hands are on the right sde of the chart and unsuited left,, the third colour (yellow i think) is just any hand that is part of the range
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hey, nice stuff... I have a general question about how to play the first hand. Do you really mean the FIRST hand or can I use this strategy every time if i have exactly 25BB (blind level 1 - maybe in hand 5, if I have 25bb) thanks
The "first hand" refers to mainly reeadless, 20-25bb approx. (So you can use the strategy for the first couple of hands)
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Hi Chadders, great videos got a few questions:1) What if villain non 4bets us when we 3b KQo, KJs or KQs first hand readless. Are we flatting or 5bet all-in? 2) In the High card and top pair slide: In the 942r example where Hero has K9o. You mentioned that we could bet slightly less than 120 will keep air in our perceived range a bit more. Do we need to worry about this at all in our first hand readless? 3) On the same slide, you c/r smaller with A2o than the K9o hand. Why is that? 4) in the Post flop play (bb) - limped pot slide: Why do we c/r top pair plus instead of leading? How much would this depend on board texture? Also c/r sizing? 5) Can we ever 3x JJ-AA for value in the first hand OTB? I read through most of this thread so apologies if some of those questions have already been covered. Thanks man!!
The range you give in the first hand readless to call open shove ( 44+, A8s+, A8o+, KQs), doens't it increase variance calling a 25bb open shove? I've notice that preflop from the SB we are really only open shoving 22 and 33, open shoving these hands is more profitable than min raising and cbetting?
i'm new at the hyper turbos.
Which hands should i call if i raise and the BB 3bet shove 25bb readless?
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