Shoving them into submission.
Hi Everyone,
I'd like to ask your opinion.
I'm playing micro stakes $1.50 Hyper Turbo, so any advice from you guys is really respected.
Recently I decided to play a more aggressive style. SB and BB I shove all pocket pairs, A5o+ & A3s+. I'm min raising K3+ to 54+.
I played like this and had great results at this level although on a really small sample size.
My question to put out there starts something like this - I'm watching all of your training / coaching videos and I see you min raising premium hands and creatively extracting value from them. I feel like such a brute smashing my opponents over the head with the method described above, but it seems to work.
I have a basic understanding of game flow, hand ranges, extracting reads and see the benefits of psychologically attacking your opponent until they are forced to fight back and make mistakes.
Would you advise that this method of play is suitable, maybe at this micro level but not at higher stake ?
Should I stick to what works, and adjust as quickly as possible against resistance ?
Is play like this frowned upon by the experts and masters of the game, or is aggression and deception a legitimate method of war at the Poker table ?
I really love this method of play, I just want to know if I'm doing the right thing and should I develop this further as my style of play ?
Thanks everyone in advance for the help and direction.
TheCleaner01
Hey Cleaner
It is important to understand that there are multiple types of hands:
- the one that profit from the fold equity - heavily
- the one that do not profit that much from the fold equity
If you shove you generate a huge amount of fold equity. The hands ends right here, right now or it goes to the river, where all the cards will be revealed. There are times and hands, when you want FE. Either because the hand is difficult to play (or more precisly: to generate money with it) or because your opponent is way to nitty and folding the hand would be the worse decision than shoveing the hand. The worse decision. This is the point you should pay attention too.
When you watch the training videos, you are watching a bunch of players that tries to maximize the EV (expected value). You say that you shove any pocket pair. Of course shoveing hands like TT, JJ, QQ, KK and AA will never ever be minus EV. But neither will it maxmize your EV (not in the early levels anyways, once you are <12bb it might be the best move depending on your opponent). A hand like 98s is very likely to connect with a flop AND you are playing in position. Why wasteing such a hand on a shove?
The question you need to answer is; do I realize the potential of my hands or don't I?
Hi.
Thanks Barrin,
What you say Is correct, and I feel the pain everytime I play a hand because I dont truely understand what the F**K im doing as Im so green.
But Im on the case, head deep in Virtual books, trying to absorb the negative downswings and keep on rolling, learning, adjusting, asking questions, sleep, study, screw as many women as possible, remember that I have a beautiful wife and kids and... oh... shit... erase that last bit.... twas just a fantasy.
Seriously, Thanks for the honest direction.
Will keep on.
Love this battle.
The Cleaner.
Go forth and CRUSH !
Good luck. May your fantasy come true.
Just do yourself a favour; do not overjust to your opponent. Learn a solid basic-strategy and build on it. Something one needs to build on, right?
Hi.
Yes A solid stratergy... If it came in a box I would buy one. But... and maybe this is what is so attractive about this lady, is that she's undefinable, vaporish and mysterious.
God Damn it, I wish I knew which way was North.
Too many Tables, Not enough time !
Go forth and CRUSH !
After taking a cool out period and re reading your advice I played a good solid game this morning winning 8 games straight. Trying to determin the cards value at this moment in time on or future streets really helps.
Good luck at the tables and Thanks for the advice.
The Cleaner.
Go forth and CRUSH !
Hey Cleaner
ill experience the exact same as you, well not the last reply you send, haha (wp sir)!.. when i follow the theory i learn in videos and read i get banged hard in micro stakes, but there are also a big difference from 100$ husng reg's to micro guys like my self imo, and many of the opponents in micros are unpredictable and does crazy moves, but the videos and books also says that we have to adapt to our opponents, i do alot more limps than i think is the optimal play and play in general much more passive than i learn from the videos, i also like you often open shove any Ax and pocket pairs and over 1000 husng it does pays of, i think that against weaker/crazy opponents its gives the best value to be more agro when it comes to open shove , but you also get much more variance to struggle whit, that said then i of course not open shove monsters but hands like Ax-A9 and pairs 22-88, and i dont do any allin open shove above 17-18bb because of that the blinds are not worth it, then i think its better to see if i can catch something on the flop, but again it all depends on the opponent, but in general thats what i do to survive.
Maybe im just not good enough to use the theory in practis:(
Sorry my English
Hey Swingking,
Nice reply, thank you. Yes me problems is... Which I'm working on... Is just trying to fix ( in my own head ) what my style of play is, approach and my basic set of rules. Naturally to be adjusted so as to be unexploitable. Each day I add a little bit to my LOL Master Plan as I edge my way forwards. I will take into consideration your comment of not shoving above 17bb and try it in my game plan.
thanks for the help.
Go forth and CRUSH !
TheCleaner.
Go forth and CRUSH !
Hey Cleaner.
This is my first result after after studying Chadders0 video pack,140 hyper turbo husng, sorry for the picture size, i have no idea how to upload and resize picture here..
Its funny to see how the graph actually shows my learning curve, even i know its a very very small sample. In the first 30-40 i was struggling whit all Chadders0 charts and could not concentrate playing the hand on the flop, flop according to opponent range and so on, but after 40 sng i begin figure things out and have focus on my opponent, and around 100 sng i feel comfortable and can do the most Pre whit out the charts, the graph actually shows it, pretty funny i think... and yes i know its small useless sample, but it do shows exactly what was going on in the learning process.
According to "style", then i think the best style is the leakfinder-style, find your opponents leak and use it, pretty simple;)
To be honest Cleaner, then its better if you dont take my advise in to your consideration haha!!.. Anyway, work hard and you will do fine...
Damn, cant uplaod the picture:(
Hey Swingking,
Nice reply, thank you. Yes me problems is... Which I'm working on... Is just trying to fix ( in my own head ) what my style of play is, approach and my basic set of rules. Naturally to be adjusted so as to be unexploitable. Each day I add a little bit to my LOL Master Plan as I edge my way forwards. I will take into consideration your comment of not shoving above 17bb and try it in my game plan.
thanks for the help.
Go forth and CRUSH !
TheCleaner.
Go forth and CRUSH !
Hi TheCleaner01,
I believe that if this shove strategy has been working for you it means it's +EV. However, as mentioned by Barrin, it probably isn't the most EV.
My point of view (taken from Chadders video pack) is that your 3bet shoving range could include most of the pockets (99-) and good Aces (A7o+, A2s+), but you would extract more value from your premium hands 3betting non-shove (to 5bb should be ok), because when called, there is a good probably that you can stack the villain.
I am not yet crushing this game (far from it), but it hasn't been difficult to adjust to opponents. At the level I play ($7, $15), people play very straightforward, so usually it is easy to steal flops OOP and 3bet shove light preflop.
The only one thing that I really struggle with is how to keep the regs out of my tables. I try to not open seat, but it's usually very hard since the tables feel up so fast. I would appreciate some suggestions on that.
Cheers.
I have to read all of your advice posted here again tomorrow with a fresh mind. I'm playing or should I say fighting like a boxer at the tables and having too many swings. With such hard work and minimal progress I find myself taking bigger and bigger risks...
I've been playing and studying solid for weeks now and I think maybe I should take a break for a few days. Could be healthier than just destroying the minimal BR I have been defending.
Guys n Girls, thanks for all your help !
GL.
Go forth and CRUSH !