On QQ hand i don't understand you saying that we shouldn't be worried that by checking we give his fd's a chance to hit because he will call our bet - isnt this the point to charge his draws here?
On K7 hand you saying that you think his range on that flop is 3,4, or gutters shouldnt we then barell that turn and a lot of rivers?
The whole point of checking back qq here is because i think its much better vs the majority of his range which i explained in a lot of detail how. A flush draw is just a part of his range, if we make decisions vs a small part of his range and not the majority of what we think his range is then we wont be playing our hands most optimally and will be losing out on a lot of chips. A flush draw is more than likely just going to checkraise us making it hard for us to continue.
Versus his flush draw by checking back i get to bluffcatch vs that instead of bet folding, and i get to induce some of his air hands to bluff turn and river now and I also lose the min to King x because i checked back flop and kept the pot small. Im confident the majority of his 3bet calling range is just going to fold to your cbet but if may prob turn and river and you get 2 streets of value that way bluffcatching vs getting no more chips if you just cbet and his air folds. Also QQ is a good hand to have in your checking back range on this flop as its not a hand you can go for 3 streets of value on this board, one of the streets you should be checking and I think its best if its the flop.
On the K7 hand i did say I think most of his range is 3x4x or gutshots but just because I know that doesnt mean hes going to fold his weaker pairs vs a double barrel. If I have reads a player calls cbets but folds to a double barrel a lot I will attack his capped range more but in that hand I decided against it and elected to check back King high which is sometimes the best hand and make a decision on the river.
I hear ya about QQ
but related to K7 hand what do you think about barelling (bluff) readless versus avg population? I guess at the stakes you play we may assume most people will at least be able to perceive their hand strength as board runs out, and make more folds with their 2nd,3rd pairs till river.
I wouldnt recommend it readless as I think most players at the lower limits find it hard to fold pairs and pay you off in spots they shouldnt.
Against players you know are tight and weaker regs that fold to mulitiple barrels when overcards run out and understand the hand your trying to represent better than non thinking players you can maybe barrel off vs those players, but again I wouldnt advise it unless you think the player is capable of folding the hand you are trying to barrel him off based on the board runout.
Hey it's me once again:)
So you are talking here about having a check back range (or checking range if you are 3betting or raising from BB) with hands that we dont not want to call a CR with soooo, do you check back most of you 2nd and 3rd pairs or even gutshots(or i guess you can barell having some equity with them?) vs an unknown? I guess following that logic we would want to cbet them only if we establish a player is a calling station (or one that calls on flop loose).
Vs very agressive opponent i guess we can cbet some of the better 2nd pairs and shove over a CR or try to call it down - depending on stack size.
Yeah checking back 2nd pair is pretty standard as we dont want to checkraised and possibly be blown of the best hand. Im more likely to cbet my gutshot type hands tho as I have no showdown when we miss.
If you have reads a player is only checkraising top pair or better you can then start valuebetting 2nd pair without worrying about being bluffed of the best hand and can extract thinner value if you know they are a calling station.
Vs aggro oppenents with a high checkraise percentage and a high turn and river probe percentage when you dont cbet, I think you can really exploit them by cbetting hands you want checkraised with and just flatting their raise and let them stack off, for instance sets and overpairs etc.
Hands in between like QQ on a King high flop I think its better you checkback and bluffcatch vs them, really aggro oppenents that have a really high turn and river probe percentages here when you check back and dont cbet will barrel turn and river with their air hands because they think your hand wasnt strong enough to cbet and they can blow you off your hand, plus bluffing is the only way they can win the hand if they have no showdown and the hand goes to the river.
So you will get 2 streets of value by letting them bluff and you will lose the min to King x the times he has you beat, this is why we dont cbet because we bloat the pot the times we are beat and he was going for a checkraise. I would never cbet QQ on a king high flop and shove over the aggro players checkraise because im getting called by King x and only folding out his bluffs.
On QQ hand i don't understand you saying that we shouldn't be worried that by checking we give his fd's a chance to hit because he will call our bet - isnt this the point to charge his draws here?
On K7 hand you saying that you think his range on that flop is 3,4, or gutters shouldnt we then barell that turn and a lot of rivers?
The whole point of checking back qq here is because i think its much better vs the majority of his range which i explained in a lot of detail how. A flush draw is just a part of his range, if we make decisions vs a small part of his range and not the majority of what we think his range is then we wont be playing our hands most optimally and will be losing out on a lot of chips. A flush draw is more than likely just going to checkraise us making it hard for us to continue.
Versus his flush draw by checking back i get to bluffcatch vs that instead of bet folding, and i get to induce some of his air hands to bluff turn and river now and I also lose the min to King x because i checked back flop and kept the pot small. Im confident the majority of his 3bet calling range is just going to fold to your cbet but if may prob turn and river and you get 2 streets of value that way bluffcatching vs getting no more chips if you just cbet and his air folds. Also QQ is a good hand to have in your checking back range on this flop as its not a hand you can go for 3 streets of value on this board, one of the streets you should be checking and I think its best if its the flop.
On the K7 hand i did say I think most of his range is 3x4x or gutshots but just because I know that doesnt mean hes going to fold his weaker pairs vs a double barrel. If I have reads a player calls cbets but folds to a double barrel a lot I will attack his capped range more but in that hand I decided against it and elected to check back King high which is sometimes the best hand and make a decision on the river.
I hear ya about QQ
but related to K7 hand what do you think about barelling (bluff) readless versus avg population? I guess at the stakes you play we may assume most people will at least be able to perceive their hand strength as board runs out, and make more folds with their 2nd,3rd pairs till river.
I wouldnt recommend it readless as I think most players at the lower limits find it hard to fold pairs and pay you off in spots they shouldnt.
Against players you know are tight and weaker regs that fold to mulitiple barrels when overcards run out and understand the hand your trying to represent better than non thinking players you can maybe barrel off vs those players, but again I wouldnt advise it unless you think the player is capable of folding the hand you are trying to barrel him off based on the board runout.
Hey it's me once again:)
So you are talking here about having a check back range (or checking range if you are 3betting or raising from BB) with hands that we dont not want to call a CR with soooo, do you check back most of you 2nd and 3rd pairs or even gutshots(or i guess you can barell having some equity with them?) vs an unknown? I guess following that logic we would want to cbet them only if we establish a player is a calling station (or one that calls on flop loose).
Vs very agressive opponent i guess we can cbet some of the better 2nd pairs and shove over a CR or try to call it down - depending on stack size.
Yeah checking back 2nd pair is pretty standard as we dont want to checkraised and possibly be blown of the best hand. Im more likely to cbet my gutshot type hands tho as I have no showdown when we miss.
If you have reads a player is only checkraising top pair or better you can then start valuebetting 2nd pair without worrying about being bluffed of the best hand and can extract thinner value if you know they are a calling station.
Vs aggro oppenents with a high checkraise percentage and a high turn and river probe percentage when you dont cbet, I think you can really exploit them by cbetting hands you want checkraised with and just flatting their raise and let them stack off, for instance sets and overpairs etc.
Hands in between like QQ on a King high flop I think its better you checkback and bluffcatch vs them, really aggro oppenents that have a really high turn and river probe percentages here when you check back and dont cbet will barrel turn and river with their air hands because they think your hand wasnt strong enough to cbet and they can blow you off your hand, plus bluffing is the only way they can win the hand if they have no showdown and the hand goes to the river.
So you will get 2 streets of value by letting them bluff and you will lose the min to King x the times he has you beat, this is why we dont cbet because we bloat the pot the times we are beat and he was going for a checkraise. I would never cbet QQ on a king high flop and shove over the aggro players checkraise because im getting called by King x and only folding out his bluffs.