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pacificJ's picture
HU Hypers vs HU CAP cash game 20bb deep

Hello,

I am currently a winning player at 15$ hyper-turbos and plan on playing 100$+ by the end of the year.

I am also interested in playing CAP (20bb) heads-up cash games. I am pretty conscious of the ranges and adjustments to do in a sit n go 20bb deep but it seems like cash game cap 20bb deep is quite different. I find it a little bit more difficult to understand the game dynamics and unfortunately, there aren't any resources online on HU CAP cash games...

Could someone please explain the global changes in ranges, frequencies adjustments, tendencies; factors to take into account, between hyper-turbos 20bb deep and cash game 20bb deep?

How our approach of the game is affected and why?

cdon3822's picture
Something to keep in mind -

Something to keep in mind - most forum posters are too lazy to answer such broad questions.

You tend to get a better response rate if you ask specific questions.

 

I've played HU CAP for a couple of hours so I'm not too familiar with the way the games play.

That said, I will try to evaluate the differences (please call me out on my projection biases stemming from my to date baller micro stakes experience).

 

20BB poker is 20BB poker.

At a glance, the main difference between the formats is the structure.

In HUNSGs, the effective stack is dynamic and strategy can conditionally vary quite a lot.

In HU CAP, you will be playing every hand @ 20BB effective stack (unless someone doesn't rebuy when they lose some of their stack).

Additionally you will be playing together until someone quits. In HUSNG you play until someone has all the chips.

 

Accordingly, I would imagine that in HU CAP cash games, more emphasis would be put on your ability to work out your opponent's frequencies & ranges and whoever can adjust better should have an edge. That is, because you are playing every hand at the same effective stack depth against the same opponent, there will be more opportunities to observe, collection information and integrate that information into strategic adjustments.

In HUSNGs, player's ranges will vary as a function of effective stacks, but you will have less of an opportunity to work out specifically how they allocate their ranges because you simply don't play as many hands at each depth. Additionally there are a ton of players in the player pool who will only play you once and then swim off once you beat them or because you have shown some competence playing. Mind you, the same is probably true of HU CAP games => I doubt many players will hang around long if you are destroying them. I think in HUSNGs you are often relying on population tendencies to make decisions to a greater extent than in HU CAP cash simply because you haven't seen much of villain's game at S effective stacks. In a cash game format you should be able to build a more specific opponent model if you play with the same opponent for a while.

The corollary of this, is that your opponent will have more information about how you play and so strategically you must be more aware of:

- your perceived ranges in spots that you know your opponent has seen (your image), conditional of course as to whether you think your opponent is thinking about this.

- balance & exploitability => there are lines which we take over small samples with the view of exploiting the population's tendency to generally play poorly vs them until we have revealed enough information that they could adjust to what we are doing => for example light 3b suited crap early in the match because people generally give 3b too much credit and fold too much. In a cash game format where our opponent is afforded more opportunities to collect data on our frequencies and observe how we play, the extent to which we understand where we have exposed ourselves and can identify where villain has started to adjust is more important.

- gameflow => related to the above, we will rely on card distribution board texture and gameflow to randomise our bluffs in spots where we feel villain is competent and we want to build a defensively balanced range.

 

Given the above, if I had to summarise the differences:

=> Dynamic effective stacks in tournament formats lead to a strategic emphasis on exploiting static ranges

=> Static effective stacks in cash game formats lead to a strategic emphasis on dynamically adjusting and readjusting

 

Also, I've heard that the rake at HU CAP games is pretty high (maybe unbeatable) until you get to higher limits.

So it might be best to play HUSNG until you are rolled for higher stake HU CAP games?

 

Does anyone know at what stake the rake at cash games becomes comparable to playing HUSNGs?

larsy's picture
In cash game you pay rake

In cash game you pay rake every time you see a flop, so if you play loose or limp alot you will end up paying more rake. A situation that is +EV in a sng can be -EV in cash. 

According to the data I found you pay 0.0159 pr hand on nl .25/.50, 0.1095 on 2/4, 0.1796 on 10/20. 

If you play around 15 hands pr sng game then you pay 0.0207 pr hand on 15$ hyper, 0.084 on 60$, 0.223 on 200$, and those 15 hands is probably with an avg of less than 20bb, so your edge will maybe be a little bigger in cash games if you could meet the same players

Barrin's picture
In cash game you do not pay

In cash game you do not pay the rake, every time you see a flop - but only if you are the winner of the hand.

Hi.

larsy's picture
I say you pay rake every time

I say you pay rake every time you contribute to the pot and money goes to the rake, just like I say you pay rake in a sngs or trnys even though you doesn't get in the money. If you rarely win anything in trnys and can never win a hand in cash, and your life gets a little bit better by thinking you pay less rake than the other guys, I won't stand in your way 

Barrin's picture
You contribute to the pot and

You contribute to the pot and the dealer takes the money for the rake out of the pot. F.e. you call $10 and the dealer takes out $0.5 - which means you only contribute $9.50 to the pot. Since the pot goes to the winner, the rake is his loss and not the loser.

Hi.

larsy's picture
Thats what I mean, you

Thats what I mean, you contribute 9.50 to the pot, and 0.50 to the rake no matter if you win or lose just like you do in a trny or sng. The difference, and my point was that if you raise pre on 10/20 in a husng and your opponent folds, you win 10+20 chips, if you fold your opponent gets the chips, and if you limp and you opponent checks, any one of you can win the 40 chips. in a cash game you win the same by raising, your opponent win the same if you fold, but if you limp in 2/4 you can't win 8 because 0.36$ is already taken out to the rake (on stars, most other sites have higher rake), making limping a little less profitable in cash than in husng. 

Barrin's picture
You only consider a win or

You only consider a win or lose scenario. You do not account for the possibility of tie and that is a huge difference between sng and cg - especially in a low-cap scenario.

Hi.

larsy's picture
What do you mean? How does

What do you mean? How does tie possibility make it more profitable to limp in or call loose OOP in a cash game? 

Barrin's picture
It does not - but it

It does not - but it decreases your winrate, which is an important thing in a comparison of sng vs cg

Hi.

larsy's picture
And what does that have to do

And what does that have to do with anything? Of course my numbers considers draw possibility. the rake numbers is an average number pr hand it doesn't matter if it's a draw or if you win or loose. 15 hands avg in hyper husng is just a guess, but that is also with draw hands of course. 

I'm trying to help op out with showing how the rake system can affect your strategy, and by showing that the rake isn't that high in cash, or it is too high in hyper, however you wanna see it. What are you doing? If you are just trolling, please return to you cave. If you are attacking me because you can't win money in cash games go back to your mom and cry to her instead.

Dipl.Komp.'s picture
in a cash game you win the

edit: delete.

Dipl.Komp.'s picture
 According to the data I

 

According to the data I found you pay 0.0159 pr hand on nl .25/.50, 0.1095 on 2/4, 0.1796 on 10/20. 

0.0159 what? i assume you mean dollars.

 

sorry, but it´s just not true that you pay 3.18 big blinds rake per 100 hands at .25/.50 CAP. if your figures were correct, i´d play nothing but.

it´s more in the region of 8-10 big blinds per 100, which makes it approximately 0.04-0.05 dollars per hand.

 

now if you compare that to HT SNG, each player pays 0.31 $ per SNG. if you want to stick with 15 hands per SNG, which is a fair assumption according to most data bases, you pay 0.0207 $ per hand. now you´d have to double that, because if you win the SNG, the missing rake of your opponent also affects your winrate. so we end up pretty much with the same amount of rake paid. that of course only assuming that 0.25/.50 CAP equals a 15 $ HT HU SNG. if a particular cash stake and a particular Buy in of SNGs are in fact comparable is a completely different thing.

 

cheers

s.

larsy's picture
Yeah you are right I was

Yeah you are right I was looking at the wrong numbers. On the bright side I was looking at wrong numbers for 2/4 and 10/20 also. the correct numbers should be around 0.08 for both 2/4 and 10/20 according to pokertableratings. Even on 25/50 you only pay 0.08$ per hand. I think those buy ins are comparable. The biggest difference is probably the amount of fish you get. 60$ hyper should be around 0.08$ per hand, so on all hypers higher than 60$ you pay more rake compared to cash, and on all hypers less than 60$ you pay less rake. This doesn't mean that playing 2/4 cap is more profitable than playing 100$ hypers, but if you have to choose between playing a guy on 25/50 or  the same guy on 1000$ hypers, 25/50 would be way better. After an hour 4 tabling you will probably have payed around 80$ in rake on 25/50, and 700$ on 1000$ hypers.