I just played a hyper turbo heads up tournament, and it had antes as well as sb and bb! I have noticed this is sometimes the case at the end of multi table tournaments in heads up play as well.
It kind of threw me off under 25bbs.........suddenly the NASH chart becomes incorrect......everything I know about how to play certain hands at certain stack depths changes. If it were a bit deeper stacked I wouldn't really mind....but def at the shallower stacks it throws me off. Is there any material about how to play heads up with antes?
The best thing I could come up with to adjust was to consider 10/20 blinds with 5 antes as just 15/25 blinds, so a big blind is 25 chips, and base everything on that. It still however then changes my odds to play hands from the small blind as I have a greater percentage of the pot invested! It also gives the big blind better odds to call a minraise....
Thoughts?
You need to look at the pot as one and then recreate the original structure (sb paying 1/3 and bb paying 2/3).
10+20+5+5 = 40
2/3 = 26.666
1/3 = 13.334
The calculation is not a huge deal in HU play, but becomes way more complicated in 6 and 9 player tables. If you play mostly tournaments or 6max / 9max tables (e.g. the 6max ht tables on stars have antes from the very first hand) you might wanna consider switching to using M instead of BB.
More importantly; you should not use NASH unless your a huge underdog versus your opponent. NASH is an equilibrium strategy and in an equilibrium you cannot exploit your opponents weakness. If you shove NASH and your opponent calls NASH neither of you is gaining anything.
Hi.
It may not be a huge deal in heads up play but it definitely makes a difference and is something you have to adjust to. Also I don't play 6 and 9 player tables.
I also strongly disagree with your comment about using NASH. You should not only use it if you are an underdog.... It is a great chart for reference and can be used effectively against any opponent. It is more just a matter of knowing how to use the chart correctly...no you should not take it as gospel and blindly shove and call when the chart says to. However it is good default play to shove NASH under 8bbs unless you notice your opponent has some very tight tendencies which allow you to limp stab or minraise / fold profitably. Then obviously stronger hands you don't need to use NASH and can do other things besides shove and choose to induce instead.
As for the 'calling' chart on Nash, I believe this one to be less useful...but still once again it's a great reference. For example. if I have J-9 offsuit at 9 big blinds and my opponent shoves, I can easily look at NASH and say "A call here is better than a fold at 9.5 big blinds IF my opponent is shoving nash". That does not mean it is a call but I can now say to myself either "I think this guys shoving range is the same as NASH or wider, So i call" OR "I believe this opponent is shoving much tighter than nash, so I fold". It's a very useful quick reference if you get into some spots you're not 100% sure about.
There is no way of using NASH correctly. If you adjust your NASH Calling/Pushing range - you do not play NASH anymore.
You also can limp and minraise <8bb. You just need an opponent you can gain from. There are many players folding to a minraise <10bb. Why would you shove Q3s if he folds to a minraise, but only calls with a range that dominates you? If he is crazy about attacking limps, you limp KQs 5bb deep - no problem.
NASH takes away the possibility of exploiting your opponent, while granting you the certainty you do surrender your edge.
If you want to use NASH as a guideline...a starting point, that is a different story: there is NASH...there is no "adjusted NASH" (this would not be nash anymore).
Hi.
"There is no way of using NASH correctly. If you adjust your NASH Calling/Pushing range - you do not play NASH anymore."
If you use the NASH table as a starting point, but then adjust your calling / pushing range based on your opponents tendencies...you are still 'USING' the NASH table. No, you are not following it exactly, but you are making use of the information it provides you. Thus to say 'You should only use it if you are an underdog' is wrong. As is saying "there is no way of using NASH correctly".
If you said "You should only follow NASH exactly for shoving and calling if you are an underdog" then you would have a point. But no one ever said to follow it exactly....merely to use the information it provides. For example If I know my opponent jams over minraises at a very high frequency, but I know his calling range for if i shove is going to be really close to a NASH calling range........If I'm 8bbs deep with J7o, there is no harm in checking nash here to see if shoving is better than folding, because limping J7 prob isn't gonna be good unless he is super tight post flop...thus jamming would be the best play. That's just one example of how the chart can be applied effectively.
Your comment is kind of like saying "There is no way of using a HUD correctly" ...because if you just base your decisions solely on what the HUD says, you will be making incorrect plays. It's about interpreting the information it provides, and applying it where relevant to what you already know about their tendencies.
I suggest reading the section of Mersenearys ebook on the NASH table, it might help to improve your game.
There is no way to use NASH correctly (or incorrectly for that matter), because NASH itself is not adjustable. You follow NASH --> you use NASH. The only mistake can be actually using NASH, or not using NASH - but there is only one way of playing according NASH.
If you wish to adjust based on the NASH chart that is fine. But in that moment you leave the equilibrium and do not play NASH anymore --> if you tell "i play NASH" you play the equiblirum strategy. Nothing else. If you alternate it, you play your own strategy but it is not the equilibrium anymore.
Hi.
There's no point in arguing over semantics, you interpret 'using nash' as playing nash and following it exactly for every single hand you play (shoving, folding and calling according exactly to the nash equilibrium). I interpret 'using nash' as simply using the chart for reference and the information that it provides, and factoring that information into your decision..... not playing every hand according to it. You just mis-interpreted the post, all good.
I also play HUSNGs with antes.
It seems to make a quite large difference when you are stealing from SB with a MR. To make a MR profitable without antes you need to win 50% of the pot (without the amount BB calls) and with antes only 42.9% (14% less).
From BB vs minraise the odds goes from 25% to 22%, a 12% difference.
When open jamming at 8bb you are risking 7.5bb to steal 1.5bb and need to win 7.5/9=83% to be brake even preflop. With antes you are risking 7.25bb to steal 2bb and need to win 7.25/9.25=78%. When called you need 47% eq without antes and 45% with antes. The difference is 7% in required steal eq and 4% in pot equity when open jamming 8bb deep.
The difference from BB facing a shove at 8bb is from 44% to 42%, so the difference is not huge in terms of eq at 8bb. As the stacks get more shallow the difference will become much larger. For example at 3bb it goes from 33% to 29% a relative decrease of 12% in required eq to make a profitable call.
These calculations is quite simple but can be valuable against highly exploitable opponents.
-You only needs 43% folds to make a MR profitable in a vacum preflop.
-You can shove a hand with around 4% (relative and 2% absolute) less equity vs loose callers 8bb deep than without ante.
-The difference is larger when you risk less e.g. MR or shove at shorter stacks
P.S. I would normally do a CREV simulation for this, but I am on vacation without a PC with CREV.
It seems like you can shove almost one big blind wider around 8bb so closer to 7bb nash than 8bb.
Very good posts Kalupso, very useful information