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outs_on_the_moon's picture
$10 - Turned straight and villain donking into me with t445 behind

$15.00/$30.00 No Limit Holdem • 2 Players Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBedgardavids8$850.00  BTNHero$2150.00  Effective Stacks: 28bb Pre-Flop ($45.00, 2 players) Hero is BTN Hero raises to $75.00, edgardavids8 calls $45.00 Flop ($150.00, 2 players) edgardavids8 checks, Hero bets $60.00, edgardavids8 raises to $120.00, Hero calls $60.00 Turn ($390.00, 2 players) edgardavids8 bets $210.00, Hero calls $210.00 River ($810.00, 2 players) edgardavids8 goes all-in $445.00, Hero calls $445.00 Final Pot: $1700.00 edgardavids8 shows Hero shows edgardavids8 wins $1700.00 ( won +$850.00 ) Hero lost -$850.00 I got outdrawn on the river which sucks offcourse... and i think i should just raise the turn, or not?Furthermore: any thoughts on cbet sizing on flop and calling villains mini-check/raise?? Is i better to bet a bit biggerand fold to a check/raise?And as played, do i really even call this minraise? And what's the reasoning behind a yes/no? 

bonafontz's picture
Hi,Do you have reads?1.

Hi,Do you have reads/tendencies of what he is doing on paired board?1. Readless, I would fold the flop. Why? The only thing we have is a gutshot. Since he min-raises you on the flop, I think we can expect him to follow with a second barrel on the turn and if we don't hit (very likely), we won't have a choice but too fold. So, in my opinion, when you don't have reads, folding this flop is better. We can just wait for a better spot or some reads; no nead to spend chips here.However, some people like to re-raise a high % of paired boards because they know it is unlikely that you have hit and your bet is probably just a c-bet trying to get the pot right there. If you noticed an opponent doing that often, you can wait for the right spot and 3-bet him on the flop. If you don't abuse it, they are likely to believe you a high % of the time.So here, if you have history that he likes to raise you on paired board, I think it would be a good spot to 3-bet him since I really don't think this flop hits his calling range very often (unless he is very loose). So 3-betting him could allow you to take the pot right here and show him that you won't tolerate him to re-raise every paired board.If the ES was shallower, I would not 3-bet him since there would be a fair chance he would shove with only a little piece of this board (straight draw, overs, etc..). But since, the EF is 28BB still, I think it is not a problem.Anyway, in my opinion, I think calling on flop is the worst play here. I would rather fold or 3-bet (depending on reads).There is an excellent video by cog dissonance (one of his first) discussing this very topic. He plays an opponent who likes to raise every paired board. I don't remember the exact name but I am sure someone else can point you out in the right direction.2. About your bet on the flop, c-betting paired board is very nice against tight and agressive opponents.The tight player will fold almost all the time if he didnt hit the flop; so you take the pot every time. If he calls, you just get out of his way.The agressive player will re-raise you. You can then remember those tendencies and exploit them later one in the match.The only players I would maybe consider not always c-betting paired board against are calling station. If you c-bet the flop, they are going to call no matter what they have. So on the turn, you don't really know where you at. Against a calling station, I would bet big (as big as you think they are willing to call your bet) for value.However, why do you bet so small on the flop? I don't know what is your average size bet but if you bet small everytime you don't hit the flop and big when you hit (I am just speculating since I don't think you would bet that small with a big hand), the opponent can catch on that and exploit you very easily (the exception here are calling stations). If you bet this size on every paired board, it is ok. In my opinion, it is ok to adjust your bet-size based on the the texture of the flop. Just don't do it based on your hand strenght.Always take my answers with a grain of salt.Cheers!

outs_on_the_moon's picture
Great Info. Tnx!   I'll check

Great Info. Tnx! I'll check out Cog Dissonance's vids and see if i can find that specific one (hope its for standard members :( ). If anyone know exactly which one it is please let me know. One other thing: you say you wouldn't cbet this flop against calling station, but why not??it seems to me this is an exellent spot to cbet against callingstation for value. First: Even most callingstation don't call 100% of there hand and leave a bunc of 2x/5x hands out of there range, so there is a very good chance this flop has missed them.Why not bet for value then like 80-100% pot and charge them if they wanna draw to realize there equity? say they have 2 overcards and no A then they still have about ~21-25% equity, if you bet pot and decide not to put any more money into the pot they're investing 33% pot odds(with a pot c-bet) and not the implied odds to make the call.... Offcourse this only takes into consideration that he wouldn't bluf you on a later street...  ps. Yip my betsizing is definitely off. I usually keep my sizing about the same size...

bonafontz's picture
Hey ootm,When I said:"The

Hey ootm,When I said:"The only players I would maybe consider not always c-betting paired board against are calling station. If you c-bet the flop, they are going to call no matter what they have. So on the turn, you don't really know where you at. Against a calling station, I would bet big (as big as you think they are willing to call your bet) for value"Here, I was speaking generally about playing against a calling station on paired board. But of course, you are right, it clearly depends of how big of a calling station he is and how passive/agressive he is on later streets.Example: If a player call every single paired-board (station) you c-bet on and is agressive on later streets, it may be better to check this down. I would not feel confortable to call a bet on the turn or the river with A high on a paired board. Because like I mentionned it, you don't really know where you are at. Naturally, if you realise your opponent has some huge tendencies like (only an example) calling 100% on the flop, checking the turn and always betting the river half-pot if you checked the turn (you showed weakness), then, in some spot,  you can think about c-betting this flop and heroe call the river with A-high. However, most often then not, c-betting against this kind of player will put you in difficult decisions.However, if you are up against a player who calls every c-bet but is very passive on the turn and the river, it is a good play to c-bet your A high for value since it is really likely that you are ahead at this moment but not so confortable to put more money in the hand when facing agression on later streets.Always take my answers with a grain of salt.Cheers!

crstn's picture
Just one thing about bet size

Just one thing about bet size on the flop: I would bet half pot + something. In this case 90.Try to look at the hand from your opp view. You make a weak stab on the flop betting  60 into 150. So maybe he can try to represent a hand by raising (his mistake was the minraise imo) and win a nice pot.Sorry if i repeat something you already know, but I really think bet size brought you in this spot