do they just 3x or 3x strong hands? if they 3x as standar then widen your 3bet range as well as your 3x flatting range. if they 3x some hands then its some Ax or pair most of the time.
I think I need to make a range of hands for myself when I'm in this situation again. Mainly it was constant 3xing so I kinda clammed up...
i didn't really get to go over the HH from today yet so I don't know what hands they was playing for 3x, but it just seemed that was their normal raising amount.
Usually I can play well with a wide opening range then this guy came along and I was like "well all my weak holdings just got weaker"
dont know what happend. My embrace of the degenerate gambler inside just got all sensible and I turned into a nit.
doh !
thanks for the reply Vas.
I assume you mean you are facing a 2.5x or 3x open raise OOP.
You are correct to tighten your ranges vs larger raise sizes because you are getting worse odds to continue.
Some other considerations for deciding on the play with the highest EV.
Exploitable raise size tell?
A lot of fish have exploitable bet sizing tells.
Many will 3x with their strongest hands and min raise their weaker hands.
This is easily exploited - you can just fold vs the larger raise size unless you have a value hand vs their range.
AND you can pick spots to attack their smaller raise size with your weakest hands because you will have so much fold equity.
2.5-3x with entire opening range?
Considerations for calling:
The larger the open raise, the more equity you need vs villain's open range to continue in the hand.
Theoretically:
Against a min raise, you only need 25% equity vs villain's opening range.
For 2.5x you need 30%.
For 3x you need 33%.
Pracftically:
HOWEVER, this would be if you played perfectly, realised all your equity in the pot and does not account for future betting on later streets.
This is unlikely, playing OOP unless villain is an awful player.
You will therefore need to add a position equity premium to account for your positional disadvantage post flop.
If you use an arbitary 10% you need the below equity vs villain's opening range:
- Equity required to call min raise OOP = (25+10) = 35%
- Equity required to call 2.5x raise OOP = (30+10) = 40%
- Equity required to call 3x raise OOP = (33+10) = 43%
Depending on how big your postflop edge is, this preimium will vary in size.
AND
Which hands you can call with depends on how wide villain is opening.
Considerations for 3b NAI:
How wide is villain opening?
How wide does villain call 3b NAI?
- Equity vs this range?
- Villain tendencies (especially fold equity) on later streets?
How wide does villain jam over 3b NAI?
- Equity vs this range?
Considerations for 3b jamming:
Note that when villain raises more pre flop IP with their entire opening range, the value of 3b jamming goes up relative to when they min raise because you now gain more from the times that villain folds.
How wide is villain opening?
How wide is villain calling a jam after opening?
- Equity vs this range?
Thankss Cdon,
So to gain this information against my villain I need to get in there and start 3bet NAI sooner and earlier in the match ?
If I wait I begin to gain less information at a more expensive cost as the blinds go up ?
This was the first match against this opponent, implementing knowledge against an unknown comes at a risk, but unless I gain this info I have no advantage.
General replys not really worthy of such great feedback, just thinking out loud.
Tell me ..... How many years till I gain an equivalent understanding as yourself :-)
I know it's hard to answer but I find general adaption against the multitude of unknows testing.
Some days I play conservative and crush, the next day in the same style it's me who gets crushed.
Yesterday after a underwhelming performance I switched to a more " make them pay for every move or decision" style and was successful.
Small sample size of course. I take from this that there is no real fixed style to play only one that is providing you with the best results consistantly.
You are one continuous and flexible adjuster.
Looking forwards to days of successful adjusting !
Many Thanks Cdon.
Develop profitable ranges against population tendencies
Hi Cleaner,
I definitely do not advocate 3b NAI for the sake of gaining information.
This would be very expensive in a hyper turbo format.
What you want to do is develop ranges for common spots which exploit the general population you are playing against. THEN you want to adjust your play to exploit the specific tendencies of the villain you are up against.
Example:
The general population plays too fit or fold on the flop OOP after flatting pre flop.
Villains will "fit" flops about 35% of the time and check-folds the rest of the time.
Say you open every button, you get called 40% of the time and you cbet 0.5P on the flop when checked to every time.
If you assume you give up and have 0 equity if villain doesn't fold to your cbet (an extreme assumption) against the general population you will make:
EV = 1.5 * 0.6 + 0.4 * (4.0 * 0.65 - 0.35* (1.5+2.0))
= 0.9 + 0.4 (2.6 - 1.23)
= 1.45 BB
Every time you take this line against the population's exploitable tendency.
HOWEVER
=> Enter villain who deviates from population which you designed your default strategy to exploit
Say you come up against a thinking opponent who notices that what you are opening every button and cbetting every flop so he starts light 3b your wide open or c/r bluffing your cbets to exploit you, then you need to adjust your ranges to counter what villain is doing that is different to the general population.
Take home message:
- Come up with frequencies / ranges which the typical population plays.
- Design ranges / actions to exploit them.
- Observe opponent and where their tendencies / frequencies / ranges deviate from the villain model assumptions which your default strategy exploits, adjust accordingly.
- The more you think about how different villains play, the more opportunities you will spot to exploit their leaks and the more you will become aware of your own leaks.
- When a villain takes a line you wouldn't - question why - maybe they understand something you don't, or maybe you can spot another fish tendency to increase your edge.
- It's an iterative process of continuous improvement, largely achieved away from the tables (in my personal experience).
Hey Cdon,
Thanks for taking the time and sharing your knowledge. It's really helpfull and clearly explained. I try to make the time today to implement what you say.
GL !
do they just 3x or 3x strong hands? if they 3x as standar then widen your 3bet range as well as your 3x flatting range. if they 3x some hands then its some Ax or pair most of the time.
I think I need to make a range of hands for myself when I'm in this situation again. Mainly it was constant 3xing so I kinda clammed up...
i didn't really get to go over the HH from today yet so I don't know what hands they was playing for 3x, but it just seemed that was their normal raising amount.
Usually I can play well with a wide opening range then this guy came along and I was like "well all my weak holdings just got weaker"
dont know what happend. My embrace of the degenerate gambler inside just got all sensible and I turned into a nit.
doh !
thanks for the reply Vas.
Go forth and CRUSH !
I assume you mean you are facing a 2.5x or 3x open raise OOP.
You are correct to tighten your ranges vs larger raise sizes because you are getting worse odds to continue.
Some other considerations for deciding on the play with the highest EV.
Exploitable raise size tell?
A lot of fish have exploitable bet sizing tells.
Many will 3x with their strongest hands and min raise their weaker hands.
This is easily exploited - you can just fold vs the larger raise size unless you have a value hand vs their range.
AND you can pick spots to attack their smaller raise size with your weakest hands because you will have so much fold equity.
2.5-3x with entire opening range?
Considerations for calling:
The larger the open raise, the more equity you need vs villain's open range to continue in the hand.
Theoretically:
Against a min raise, you only need 25% equity vs villain's opening range.
For 2.5x you need 30%.
For 3x you need 33%.
Pracftically:
HOWEVER, this would be if you played perfectly, realised all your equity in the pot and does not account for future betting on later streets.
This is unlikely, playing OOP unless villain is an awful player.
You will therefore need to add a position equity premium to account for your positional disadvantage post flop.
If you use an arbitary 10% you need the below equity vs villain's opening range:
- Equity required to call min raise OOP = (25+10) = 35%
- Equity required to call 2.5x raise OOP = (30+10) = 40%
- Equity required to call 3x raise OOP = (33+10) = 43%
Depending on how big your postflop edge is, this preimium will vary in size.
AND
Which hands you can call with depends on how wide villain is opening.
Considerations for 3b NAI:
How wide is villain opening?
How wide does villain call 3b NAI?
- Equity vs this range?
- Villain tendencies (especially fold equity) on later streets?
How wide does villain jam over 3b NAI?
- Equity vs this range?
Considerations for 3b jamming:
Note that when villain raises more pre flop IP with their entire opening range, the value of 3b jamming goes up relative to when they min raise because you now gain more from the times that villain folds.
How wide is villain opening?
How wide is villain calling a jam after opening?
- Equity vs this range?
Thankss Cdon,
So to gain this information against my villain I need to get in there and start 3bet NAI sooner and earlier in the match ?
If I wait I begin to gain less information at a more expensive cost as the blinds go up ?
This was the first match against this opponent, implementing knowledge against an unknown comes at a risk, but unless I gain this info I have no advantage.
General replys not really worthy of such great feedback, just thinking out loud.
Tell me ..... How many years till I gain an equivalent understanding as yourself :-)
I know it's hard to answer but I find general adaption against the multitude of unknows testing.
Some days I play conservative and crush, the next day in the same style it's me who gets crushed.
Yesterday after a underwhelming performance I switched to a more " make them pay for every move or decision" style and was successful.
Small sample size of course. I take from this that there is no real fixed style to play only one that is providing you with the best results consistantly.
You are one continuous and flexible adjuster.
Looking forwards to days of successful adjusting !
Many Thanks Cdon.
Go forth and CRUSH !
Hi Cleaner,
I definitely do not advocate 3b NAI for the sake of gaining information.
This would be very expensive in a hyper turbo format.
What you want to do is develop ranges for common spots which exploit the general population you are playing against.
THEN you want to adjust your play to exploit the specific tendencies of the villain you are up against.
Example:
The general population plays too fit or fold on the flop OOP after flatting pre flop.
Villains will "fit" flops about 35% of the time and check-folds the rest of the time.
Say you open every button, you get called 40% of the time and you cbet 0.5P on the flop when checked to every time.
If you assume you give up and have 0 equity if villain doesn't fold to your cbet (an extreme assumption) against the general population you will make:
EV = 1.5 * 0.6 + 0.4 * (4.0 * 0.65 - 0.35* (1.5+2.0))
= 0.9 + 0.4 (2.6 - 1.23)
= 1.45 BB
Every time you take this line against the population's exploitable tendency.
HOWEVER
=> Enter villain who deviates from population which you designed your default strategy to exploit
Say you come up against a thinking opponent who notices that what you are opening every button and cbetting every flop so he starts light 3b your wide open or c/r bluffing your cbets to exploit you, then you need to adjust your ranges to counter what villain is doing that is different to the general population.
Take home message:
- Come up with frequencies / ranges which the typical population plays.
- Design ranges / actions to exploit them.
- Observe opponent and where their tendencies / frequencies / ranges deviate from the villain model assumptions which your default strategy exploits, adjust accordingly.
- The more you think about how different villains play, the more opportunities you will spot to exploit their leaks and the more you will become aware of your own leaks.
- When a villain takes a line you wouldn't - question why - maybe they understand something you don't, or maybe you can spot another fish tendency to increase your edge.
- It's an iterative process of continuous improvement, largely achieved away from the tables (in my personal experience).
Hey Cdon,
Thanks for taking the time and sharing your knowledge. It's really helpfull and clearly explained. I try to make the time today to implement what you say.
GL !
Go forth and CRUSH !