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Waterd103's picture
Beating spin and go

Today I finished watching the beating spin and go video. While I think it definitly help me, I have some issues with it that I want to discuss.

I have a general issue with the series where Cofee just refers to range of hands or population tendences in ambigous and open to , sometimes extreme, wide interpretation, Like ¨Fold more¨  ok how much more? is up to you to decide with no basis whatsoever

 

Ok, but being specific here is my first problem, in the HU crash course he says, (from my experience correctly) that people fold a lot vs minraise in 11-16b deep.

Then he says ¨limp most of your range¨¨ It seems in fact I should not be limping at all unless I start to see my opponent to be willing to at least shove 30% of this range, right? Why im limping here if my opponent is not 3betting more than 30% and maybe even have VPIP lower than 60%, it seems I should in fact minraise my whole range. So I´m confused here.

My general plan, in part based from my experience in heads up and in part from tilt and phl video crushing hypers, is to minraise my whole range, until my opponent shows me he is at least willing to 3bs 30% of the range, then if 17+ deep start to limp, then when I get shallower (11-16), , if my opponent keeps showing his willing to 3bs 30%+ I start to Limp or openjam the middle part of my range (98s, Q5s, Q9o), my decision between limp and openjam generally weighted based on my opponent iso tendences and his play post flop

 

Basically, I do not feel Coffee makes a good case to start limping at that deep with hands like J9o or T6s, instead of minraise folding, based even on his own observations of the population tendences. Where Im wrong?

Waterd103's picture
I would liek an answer, but

I would liek an answer, but while im waiting for it, i want to touch something that has been worrying me lately. Ive seeing very known winning hyper grinders in the 30s and 60s,where that bighusla to get 8,5% do in fact have a limping range on the button.

And what worries me is that i see some of  of them have a wide limping range on the button, I also read that bighusla to get the 8,5% roi did in fact have a limping range on the button, and I do not have, nor im developing any limping range, in part because of what Coffee says on the video. If it´s better to have a limping range on the button than not, I would like to know but i don´t know how to figure it out.

I really can´t figure out a reason to get a limping range 18BB and deeper, but i recognize when im on the button like 15BB deep with hands like Q8s, im troubles since i think i will be shoved over too often and at the same time it´s too strong to open fold (what I do here instead is just to openshove). But i decided to just not have an open limping range based on coffee video, but now i feel im slowing my improvement because of that, denying myself a tool that other, better players than me, are using.

 

coffeeyay's picture
Based on my studying of the

Based on my studying of the population tendencies, as well as reviewing the results of a number of different players, I believe that deep stacked almost every hand strictly prefers to min-raise--the only exceptions I've found are that suited broadway hands slightly prefer to limp-flat. I also found though that the EV differences between limping and min-raising are very small and therefore there will certainly be reads and populations where instead limping will be slightly better. Shallower there will be more hands that prefer to limp read-less, but still the EV differences will be small compared to not having that range.

Certainly you should not deny yourself of limping though once you've become and experienced player, and it's definitely something you should explore and look into. My video pack never says you cannot our should not limp on the button! Simply that expectations tend to run pretty close and min-raising is easier for new players so I focused on that aspect of button play. The benefit of building a limping range will be very small compared to that of building an overall solid strategy pre-flop and post-flop so I chose to spend more time on the latter. This is definitely a fantastic topic though, as there certainly is a lot of ways that limping can be used given reads or at shallower stacks to squeeze a bit more edge out of your button play. It's definitely not necessary for beating Spin and Gos, but can definitely be a valuable weapon in your arsenal.

I'll certainly look to building some content regarding button and SB limping since it's a topic that seems to have a lot of interest in it :)

tamamo's picture
for the last opponent of the

for the last opponent of the last video.

$30 TR****H1

He looks middling aggressive against limp, in addition he open very wide.

imo T9o is easycallpush , 54oJ6o are openfold ,86s is easypush, Q6o is close push or limp, KTo also seem to easy3bet.

Does this adjustment is too early?

coffeeyay's picture
Yes those adjustments seem

Yes those adjustments seem very extreme! The T9o versus the open shove was still fairly read-less, and population tendencies point to very tight open shove ranges at that stackd depth, so while we want to adjust to our opponent we need to adjust away from the population tendencies which will make it still a fold--that being said it's certainly a very close spot. 

Folding 54o and J6o is certainly too big of an adjustment as those are very strong hands on the button! Read-less we shouldn't fold anything at that stack depth, so to adjust we can begin to fold some hands, but J6o and 54o will need a lot of reads since we have so many weaker hands we want to fold first before we make such an extreme adaptation.

86s is closer, and we could definitely elect to open shove there. However, it's still fairly deep and limping is again a lot better versus the population tendencies, so it's still usually going to be a limp unless you feel very uncomfortable post versus villian, or you have better reads that villain shoves >50% of the time over your limps.

Q6o 9.75bb is not at all close to a push--open shoving will be very similar to open-folding in expectation vs most players (it's a 9.6bb Nash push), while limping with 72o is better than open-folding versus most players and Q6o limps way better than 72o. Even if we have to fold more than average we will still be doing significantly better limping there than open-shoving.

Lastly KTo is super close. Shoving there for thin value will be very similar in EV. I slightly prefer flatting but it's likely because I'm so confident post but shoving would be absolutely fine.

Hope that helps!

 

RyPac13's picture
Sorry Waterd. I'll get that

Sorry Waterd. I'll get that question answered ASAP (along with the new one), just noticed it today.

Waterd103's picture
Ok, if Im getting a response

Ok, if Im getting a response I will say

Ive been watching primordalAA on twitch and talked a little with him about this and even his difference with coffeyay comment. He is very open at answering everything and I recommend anyone interesting in spin and goes to watch it.

On the limping range on button, PrimordialAA has a very wide limping range on the button too. He has also has a considerable wider opening range on the BTN that cofee suggest (he has no problem raising in BTN hands like K5o J7o, 86o), However he recognizes that he may be wrong and that he is indeed opening very wide, however he says, it´s very possible that if it´s wrong to open those hands, he seems very unlikely that is wrong to limp them.

He is also notoriously more wide in his calling range in SB vs BTN, and he has a similar vision that what he commented on BTN.

He also has a wide limping range on SB, but i dont´mind because I also found it to be the best vs most decent players and I too have now a wide limping range in SB.

 

coffeeyay's picture
Glad to hear you're finding

Glad to hear you're finding some more Spin content out there! I know there hasn't been much posted, and it's great to get other perspectives.

I talked about limping on the button earlier, but I wanted to expand a bit more. I'm definitely convinced playing those wide hands is incorrect. I've seen a ton of databases with very poor results with them, and done enough modeling versus population tendencies to be pretty confident that in todays games playing pretty tight on the button is better than loose. Limping doesn't actually help deep, especially with the hands you mention because they are significantly worse in 3-way pots than 2-way and when limping you play 3-way 50% of the time as opposed to about 30% of the time when min-raising, so there's no reason to suspect that limping them is a more profitable way to play them readless--in fact my research indicates the opposite, which would make limping them an even bigger mistake than opening.

Perhaps if Primo has enough sample you could ask him to share his results with the bottom of his range? It would be great to have another data point as right now all the data indicates he's incorrect.

SB vs BTN is another spot where I've seen very poor expectations with weak hands in practice. In theory it's tempting to play because of good pot odds, but the truth is that due to the BTN's strong range and our positional disadvantage equity realization tends to be very low in SB--it's very tough to value bet (which increases realization), and it's very tough to avoid being put in bluff catcher spots (which lowers realization). The exception is drawing hands (like 54s), which I definitely agree you can call very wide with--drawing hands will almost always be able to profitably call bets without being made indifferent, and when made they can always value bet, so they do a good job realizing their equity and can take advantage of the good pot odds offered.

As for SB vs BB, I definitely agree limping a lot is a good way to approach SB play--especially vs stronger players. That being said, there are still plenty of hands for which min-raising is strictly better so it's important not to go too far into limping world and forget entirely about min-raising :)

Hope that helps, sorry again for the delay in getting to all your questions.

tamamo's picture
If I remember correctly , I

If I remember correctly , I did not see multiple cbet bluff in this pack.

Is it not need so much against random spin players?

coffeeyay's picture
Most players call too much on

Most players call too much on the river, so generally big river bluffs tend to be plays to avoid. I usually try to instead find profitable spots to set up smaller river bluffs, or just small flop/turn bluffs that shut-down later. This lowers our in-game variance which can help with win-rate maximization, as well as generally doing a better job of exploiting the population's tendency to call too much.

OlimpicGold's picture
Nash BU Push adjustments

Hi -- hopefully this is the proper location for this question.

Enjoying the videos so far.  I have a question about interpreting the charts.  On the chart "NASH P-F BU PUSH", T7s can be shoved for 9bb or less.   Then on the chart "NASH BU Push - BB is Short Stack", the adjustment is -11bb. 

9 - 11 = -2bb, which does not make sense, so please let me know if I am misunderstanding how to interpret the adjustment chart or if it's just a typo (same for 65s). 

--Thanks!

coffeeyay's picture
Good catch! It appears there

Good catch! It appears there are a couple of typos--65s should be set to 10 in the Push/fold chart (the footnote on it is correct), and T7s should be set to 11. That being said don't worry too much about this change--the EVs of shoving those hands at 10 and 11 respectively are very close to 0 at equilibrium, so the ev difference of beginning to shove it at 8bb or 9bb respecitvely is extremely small and on the order of approximation mistake. These push/fold ranges do not have mixing indicated and so it's possible that the hands would be mixed around those stack depths, or appear/disappear in the range at fractional BBs. In the end nothing to worry about for actual gameplay--you won't go wrong following the original chart  :)

In the end the adjustment chart should still make sense for those hands--don't jam them at all when BB is short.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

coffeeyay's picture
Answers to original post

My apologies for missing this, I focused on your questions in the actual video thread and forgot to answer these as well.

Regarding your first question "how much more" the unfortunate answer is "it depends". It's hard to give you some basis when play will depend on the exact stack depth, the players you're playing against, and the population tendencies you assume. At the time of release of the pack population tendencies were still uncertain and quickly changing so I tried to create more general rules that would apply to many different games, as opposed to a static strategy that would quickly become out-dated. Including a more detailed read-less strategy that you can use to adjuste from is definitely something I can consider doing in a future expansion to the beating spins video pack if there is enough demand, but I definitely did not want to do that in a video pack released so early in the life span of Spins.

Regarding your question about HU play and limping versus min-raising, I think it's important to understand that just because villains fold to a min-raise doesn't mean that min-raising is best. There are many hands that still have higher expectation limping even when your opponent has a low VPIP. It does mean that min-raise bluffing is very profitable, but again it still may be true that limping the weakest hands will be even more profitable! Certainly you shouldn't be open folding when your opponent is very tight, but min-raising your whole range 16bb or shallower will likely be a big mistake. I also think the philosophy of waiting for your opponent to adapt is also a bit misguided since we'd prefer our opponent not to adapt. By having a limping range we make it significantly less likely our opponent will adapt to our min-raises allowing us to min-raise bluffs longer and for more profit overall, while still doing very well with the rest of our range since limping at these depths is so profitable by default. Similarly the expectation on limping weak hands rather than min-raising them is usually very close (or slightly better) deep stacked. At that point it benefits our strategy to limp them--it lowers our min-raise frequency, lets us get reads on their strategy versus limps, and lowers our in-game variance which better maximizes our win-rate.

Also, I never recommended limping J9o or T6s deep read-less, those become limps around 16bb. Not sure where you got that from, as I'm a big advocate of min-raising strong playability hands deep :)

 

OlimpicGold's picture
Hi -- thanks for the response

Hi -- thanks for the response on my previous question.

In "Putting It All Together 2" (16:33) you discuss a BU hand with A5o.  It is a slightly asymmetric situation and you use an adjustment chart, but I believe the chart you used is for BB calling vs BU when BB is the short stack (rather than BU jamming when BB is the short stack).  Although it doesn't affect the action in that particular hand (still a jam with either adjustment), I just want to verify that the adjustment there would be positive (wider) rather than negative.  Please let me know if I missed something and have it all backwards.

Thanks!

Grind4myshine's picture
Win rate / Hourly considerations

Coffee, 

          How are we determining our winrate, your 1st video discusses variance quite well, but wtf is EVROI? Is it ROI ? How many games before we know what it needs to be and how much does rb factor into this equation? Also on pt4 are we measuring our win rate by ITM or EV ROI, how do those two mean anything in terms of showing us our overall profitability as a player. I understand ITM controls your variance but what win rate/ hourly implications do they have over the long run? 

ftd's picture
Couple of questions

Hi. 

Couple of questions:

Heads up crash course 7-11 bb deep:

"open shove value and best low-card semi-bluffs"

How much a hand has to win of the price pool to be considered as a value shove and not a limp?

 

And can you determine when stack is:

- Deep

- Shallow

- Very shallow

 

Kind Regards

Ftd