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qattack's picture
Cog's Videos...My Head is Spinning!

I have been following MuLitiax's Begginer's Video Guide and everything has been crystal clear until I hit Cog's videos. I have watched only #1 & 2, but I am having soooo much trouble understanding many of the plays and perceptions in these videos.This is not a critcism of Cog; rather, it is my own mindset. I think it is the combination between Cog's limping and the unique types of opponents that appear in these videos. (Unique in the sense that similar types have not appeared in previous videos I have watched. I think I must have extreme troubles with these types of opponents while I am playing.)During previous patterns, I've had little trouble picking up opponent patterns and understanding the instructor's response to those patterns. I think they must have been more "basic" opponents. In these videos, I am guessing completely wrong at many points as to what Cog's next action will be and understanding his reasoning for these actions is eluding me.Cog seems to have a seventh sense for what's going in the minds of his opponents. Yes, that's beyond the sixth sense of other gurus. :)I keep reading about Cog's now-defunct beginner's introduction to HU sngs. Someone said that all the information in that course is scattered throughout his videos, but it's going to take me five views each video just to understand the thought processes. I wish that husng.com had a video series similar to that course! I've always done better with a framework to start with followed by adjusting my thought process watching live play.Anyway, I'm glad to be here and all the material has been great so far.

RyPac13's picture
Have you watched Cog's Heads

Have you watched Cog's Heads Up Fundamentals: Playing Tight Players yet?That is basically the same thing as 25% of the course.The other 3 videos of the course will likely be made in the future, we just want to make sure that his long list of 100+ students doesn't get offended that they paid $200 for the course and then it was released and available for $25 on video shortly after.These concerns should greatly diminish in the near future, as paying a higher price for information available at one time is much different than paying even a small fraction 6 months to 2 years later.  Regardless, the videos should be a great addition to our library, particularly for starting players.

qattack's picture
Thank you for your reply

Thank you for your reply Rypac...No, I haven't watched "HUF: PTP" yet, as I was going in order from earliest to most recent. I'm sure that is not the most efficient, but I'm a little anal retentive in that way.I will watch that video next.As for paying $200 for the course immediately vs. waiting for the information: Yes, if the course was still available I'd jump on it for $200 instead of waiting an extra six months.

noizekick's picture
I watched some Cog's video

I watched some Cog's video and the guy is definitely a great teacher, but i think thoses video are 100% oriented regular speed expet the last, and so then the concepts explained might be adjusted in turbo games, well for me who need good fundamentals, i prefer avoid em for now, is that right?

qattack's picture
I have been learning so much

I have been learning so much over the last week, and doing extremely well at microstakes HU sngs (and running good on top of that!), but I just finished watching four or five of Cog's videos and decided to try to emulate his play and his reads.This was total disaster. I lost BADLY in four of five those matches and the match that I won I didn't do so well in the first half, then I had a quick turnaround and win.I am not sure exactly what this means about my current abilities. I mean, I know I am just beginning and I don't expect to be a good player yet, but apparently I cannot come near to understanding how to handle the various opponents I just played.If I was playing my (recently) normal, Primordial, raise every hand preflop game, I think I could have handled my opponent's responses, but as I stated above, I cannot come close to understanding Cog's reads on his opponents when he plays his ultra-passive style.Again, this isn't a slight to Cog...quite the opposite. I guess I just cannot comprehend and put into action his explanations in his videos.How do you get a handle on nebulous poker concepts that you cannot understand?I am not playing Cog's style because I think it is the style that I should be playing, but rather so that I can learn the concepts that he is presenting. But it is an interesting style and I can effectively play it, so much the better.But after those five matches I feel really BLAH

RyPac13's picture
I would focus more on the

I would focus more on the opponents that you see in the videos and what adjustments a coach makes, rather than trying to emulate what they are doing in one video into your "default game."If you're playing an aggressive player but haven't watched a video against an aggressive opponent, emulating some adjustments or play against tight players is going to be tough.You don't need to try to play like Cog or Primo or anybody else to learn from them.  Just watch how they adjust to certain players and in certain situations and when you come across those situations or situations similar, you might be able to draw the parallels and make the proper adjustments.If you're feeling lost limping, raising your button shouldn't be the answer.  It doesn't usually work like that.  Adjusting to your opponent is typically easier in limped pots, as the main disadvantage of limping your button is that it's tougher to build larger pots for value (or even to steal later on in the hand) and you have a positional advantage that generally justifies building a large pot (at least more so than OOP, by that I mean with a wider range of hands, you can just get a lot more value and play a bit more risky, per se, when playing in position due to the advantage of acting last and probably even being able to hit more boards).So if you see Cog check back 2nd pair on a flop, don't just emulate it.  Ask yourself why he did it if it's not clear.  Ask what type of opponent he was playing and why is he making that play against him.  If you're still unsure, just ask in the comments section of his video and PM him alerting him to your public question (keep the questions public so that everybody can learn from a coach's response).It also may not hurt to mix up the variety of instructors that you watch.  Unless you're really connecting with a coach's videos, try watching a few other instructor's videos and see if you really just tune into one of them for whatever reason.  Most instructor's videos made at the low to mid stakes in the standard membership should contain learnable material even for a rather new player.  Skates videos may be an exception, due to some of the advanced concepts he tends to talk about in both the low and higher videos.  Most other instructors tend to keep it simpler in the lower stakes videos, I wouldn't call either approach better, just different.And finally, it's just 5 games!  Comfort is important, but don't break down your success and results too short term or you'll go crazy. 

RyPac13's picture
"I watched some Cog's video

"I watched some Cog's video and the guy is definitely a great teacher, but i think thoses video are 100% oriented regular speed expet the last, and so then the concepts explained might be adjusted in turbo games, well for me who need good fundamentals, i prefer avoid em for now, is that right?"Take a look at Cog's super turbo videos if you want to see some adjustments that he makes versus the regular speed format.Generally newer players tend to have more initial success in the regular speeds though, as it allows more time for adjusting and opponent mistakes, and less pressure/short stack situations, which are usually tougher to learn because of the extreme depenency on your opponent and the harder adjustments required to fully exploit a player.

qattack's picture
Thank you again Rypac...your

Thank you again Rypac...your replies are always relavant and thorough. As I stated before, I am new to HU strategy, but have been seriously studying poker in general for over 14 years. So my "beginners" status is a little bit different, BUT I'm still trying to come at this with as few preconceptions as possible. And I'm not the kind of person that will dismiss expert advice. If you are saying something, I am listening and if I don't see the relavance, then my first thought is... "AHA! I found a leak!"I have been mass-tabling six max and nine max games so long and been relying on the HUD stats for all my decisions that all of this "get a good read on my opponent" stuff is new to me. I have in previous years worked to develop solid reads, especially during my live play, but poker has evolved so much since then, I need to forget "what I know" and start all over again so I do it the right way.I read your comments a few minutes ago and while I was writing this response, a couple of things clicked in mind due to what you said...not that I suddenly understood Cog's godlike reasoning (yes, godlike in my mind so far, coming at this as a beginner!), but I think I now understand why my approach may be wrong.*****My responses to some of the things you said above:"I would focus more on the opponents that you see in the videos and what adjustments a coach makes, rather than trying to emulate what they are doing in one video into your "default game." " ... "So if you see Cog check back 2nd pair on a flop, don't just emulate it.  Ask yourself why he did it if it's not clear."I was trying to emulate Cog's passive style, in hopes that I could then get myself into situations that I am not familiar with in my own play and then apply some Cog reasoning. My problem watching Cog's videos is that looking at each individual hand of the video I can "kind of see his reasoning." Hmmm...I cannot put what I want to say into words, which I think is also my problem with not being able to understand the concepts in his videos. I guess I'm having trouble tieing the hands together...each hand is not teaching about other similar hands in the same video. I am not seeing the connection. Does that make any sense?I do try to understand why he is taking a certain action, rather than "just checking back with second pair."*****"If you're feeling lost limping, raising your button shouldn't be the answer...Adjusting to your opponent is typically easier in limped pots."I might try to disagree here. (LEAK!!!??) And here I am bringing in a preconception from my six max games. But I think much of my problem is that I can (currently) get a much better feel for an opponent based upon how he responds to my raise vs. how he responds to my limp. After raising, it seems to me, that opponents generally play more straightforwardly and/or they don't deviate as much with their responses.Or maybe my big problem here is that I ASSUME that when I limp they will react a bit more erratically? (LEAK!)But it seems to me that when I limp my button, the opponent has a much wider range of choices that he can make.My reasoning behind trying to emulate Cog's style was so that I can try to improve my reading ability, because it seems so much harder (for me) to get an accurate read on opponents when I play so passively.*****I generally don't focus on a very small number of games, but during all of these games, I felt very uncomfortable and after my losses (or win) I felt that I had no idea how to adjust to what just happened to me.During other matches, when I play poorly, i can generally decide HOW I played poorly. During all of these matches, I really don't even know if I DID play poorly in many spots.And I played another six or seven games after those in the same manner, and felt equally as lost, although I did win two of them. Well, in honesty, one of them only lasted two hands, and one of them that I won, the guy was opening shoving almost every hand and shoving over my limp most hands.*****I have watched seven of primordial's videos, nine of skates' videos (as recommended in MuLiTiAx's thread), and 12 of yours and I feel like I really understood most or all of their play. I didn't find Skates' material in those videos too advanced.For some reason, Cog's play is baffling to me. It is not the way he describes it...it's his play itself.So maybe for now I will move on to other instructor's videos and come back to Cog's videos when I understand more about HU play. Because my feeling is that, at least for me, these videos are really advanced.Am I completely wrong to think that?

qattack's picture
OK, well some good news

OK, well some good news anyway...I reverted to playing my "normal" game. However, I found myself limping much more frequently on the button in many situations with lesser hands and taking more stabs at the pots. I do credit Cog's videos for that.

RyPac13's picture
Just reading the first few

Just reading the first few paragraphs of your last large post, raising your button may be giving you more comfort just because you can identify player's ranges in a bit of a more narrowed way.For example, you automatically know a guy calling a 3x raise with 50% of hands is just about sure to fold a hand such as 73o or 63o, 53o and a host of other hands.  From that you can figure out that they are less likely to hit a KJ3 flop than a KJ6 flop (assuming more 6x hands than 3x hands are in their range of course, a usually accurate assumption here).However, that doesn't mean that you're playing any better by raising vs limping (and FWIW I'm not advocating limping your buttons or anything, just talking about limping vs raising and maybe why you feel raising is best for you now or it's more comfortable, etc.  I personally end up finding reasons to raise most buttons vs almost every opponent, particularly deep, though some if it has to do with patience, focus and structures).However, if you're limping and your opponent checks back 90%, you can't make the same sort of assumption or even the opposite as above (KJ6 and KJ3 are likely hit the same % vs a guy checking back 90% of hands, perhaps slightly less if he has 66 and not 33 in his range or A6s and not any A3 hands, but again, very very close).  But you may actually have a much larger edge against this player if he is very bad at playing low pairs and weak kickers, as well as weak draws (particularly say weak gutshots, 43 on a 26J board for instance) postflop.  If he plays too large of pots and takes too poor of lines with those hands, it's probably better to limp, as in this example if you had raised your opponent will fold those weaker hands preflop and correctly so, since he plays them so poorly.So in my example, you may feel more comfortable in the raised pot just on the sole fact that you can narrow their hand range down a bit, when in reality you're more profitable to limp.That's just an example though, don't take that literally and just limp vs guys that call 50% of raises by default, that's not necessarily correct by any stretch.I talk about this topic in this thread as well. 

qattack's picture
Yes, I think I'm partially

Yes, I think I'm partially getting two topics confused: Reading opponents and determining their (current) hand ranges.Of course the two are related, but it is much easier to determine their hand ranges after raising my button.As far as what you talk about in the linked thread, I understand that concept and I would always choose to play the weak player (assuming I'm looking for profit and not a learning experience).

RyPac13's picture
Even a learning experience

Even a learning experience can be confused here, as developing concepts that maximally beat players with wide and worse ranges is certainly very valuable, probably factually is a better use of time as far as growth and learning is concerned, especially at the low to mid level and as high as into the triple digit buyins.Reading the rest of your long post from earlier, I wouldn't say Cog's videos are necessarily advanced as a whole.  I think it's very person dependent, as in one player may find xSCWx's videos to be hard to grasp and another may find Cog's or Fydor's or Primo's.  Obviously certain instructors on average will get through to newer players more often, but everybody has their own strengths and weaknesses both in identifying how to adjust, executing an adjustment and articulating that to a viewer.  So it makes sense to me that we'll see some variation from various people.I think you answered your own question on what to do.  Revisit the Cog videos periodically and work with the ones that are helping you most right now.  But revisiting is a great idea, even if you end up loving somebody else's videos far above anything else, the fact that you're not grasping Cog's videos is likely to mean that there is some value in understanding them better sometime in the future.  It just may not be right now.I'd also recommend posting some hands and getting involved in reading and posting in hand threads here, even if you're asking a poster to clarify their thoughts or reading other people's advice and thinking about it, this should be a great benefit to you.  And ask questions in the comments section of the videos, as I mentioned before.