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mersenneary's picture
Discussion Thread for Small Blind Play 11-14bb Deep: Raise, Openshove, Fold, or Limp?


happy's picture
is the reason for limping

is the reason for limping hands like K4o-K7o that that you would like to play those hands but you cannot if they are put into the raise /folding range that range simply becomes to wide and can easily be exploited. and you'd much rather play a hand with High card because it has some showdown value a high against villians [checking back vs limp ] range ? compared with for example 86 which have no showdown value unless it pairs up ?this made sense in my head  

mersenneary's picture
Nothing about these ranges

Nothing about these ranges are "because it's too easy to be exploited" - a ton of this is very easy to be exploited. It's also optimal. The K4-K7o hands are somewhat close between all 4 decisions at this stack depth (all-in, limp, minraise/call, minraise/fold).

NeoCodion's picture
"While an average does not


DarkSide110902's picture
The Table

 Hey Mers love your work, I am not sure I understand the table. You state “I have made a table. It shows the expectation of openshoving with each hand 12bb deep against this calling range.” Lets use AA for example. It is +2.8bb if we open shove? Since it is blue you recommend raise/call. Does that mean when we raise/call our expectation is better than +2.8bb? It would also mean that the expectation will be higher for all hands( some expectations will be close) if you follow the chart instead of openshoving?  

mersenneary's picture
Yes, if I'm saying it's a

Yes, if I'm saying it's a raise/call instead of an openshove, it's because I think the expectation from raise/calling is better than the openshoving expectation. Hands like big pairs, KQ/KJ, etc, work really well to raise/call instead of openshove. From a balance perspective, they help your minraising range not be totally full of junk, and from an exploitative perspective, we really are looking for 3-bet jams and not folds with those type of holdings.

mooncreator2's picture
K7-KT, QT raise/call

Nice work Mersenneary! Thank you!I have a question. I do not understand why you raise/call with K7, QT types hands? If we minraise with 12BB deep and then our opponent shove we have 14:10 pot oddsz. Therefore we need 42% chances against our opponent 3bet push range to call. But with K7 we have only 39% chance even against a very wild 3bet range (top35%). So I think K7o raise/call in 12BB deep with readless is very big -EV.I think against an average player we get 42% chance (so we should raise/call) with this range: A8+,A7s+,KQs+,77+Am I wrong? Thank you for the reply.  

nidel's picture
RE: K7-KT, QT raise/call

If you see the SC charts ull find out that for QTo and K7o  EvOpenJam > Evfold. Then whats is better, Openshove and get calls only from best hands of villian range? or induce the villian to shove a wider range? There are 5 posible options here: Fold, limp, miniraise/Call, miniraise/fold and OpenShove, the ROLF chart tell you wich is the line that maximize your expectation for an average player. In the case of QTo, Miniraise/call>OpenShove>Limp>miniraise/fold>Fold. For K7o i think is better openpush to prevent 3BetsShove from hands like 89s, T9s, JTs, 8Ts..... for QTo this hands arent a problem becouse dominates most of them. 

DarkSide110902's picture
From the table

Hey Mers,-Hands like K2, Q2s why minraise/fold them? They play horribly when we are called.-From that table, how wide would you expect an average opponent to raise over your minraise and how often would they attack your limps.- Why do you consider hands like K7 as Raise/Call 12bb? I was playing with a shove calculators and it seems that villain would need to shove over 50% of his range over our min-raise for this to be profitable. Most players are not 3bet shoving that wide. If an average villain is 3betting something like 20% of his range than we can safely assume that we are dominated a lot more than we dominate. What am I misunderstanding here.

cdon3822's picture
Why raise-fold K3o?

Can someone explain why raise-folding K3o is considered the highest expectation (better than open jamming) @ 12BB?
As standard I would be open jamming here because:
1. Hand is too strong to open fold in position
2. Hand is too weak to raise-call unless opponent is a spewtard
3. We don't really like getting flatted since it plays terribly post flop:
-  preflop equity decreases on majority of total flop distribution
- hand suffers from reverse implied odds (even when we hit our K, we are often outkicked by Kx part of opponent's Kx flatting range when all the money goes in)
The only benefits to raise-folding I can see are:
- Getting away from the top of villain's range which crushes us when we get 3b
- Balancing the top of our raise-call range
Do you feel like these benefits provide enough marginal expectation to not simply open jam?
Against nits I think raise-folding is clearly best but why is it considered best readless?