HOLY WALL OF TEXT, BATMAN :)

lol sorry man... just so i know not to take the piss, is there a limit to how much i can reasonably ask per day without overloading you?haha no, you're fine man! i'll get to ur ?s later today. just please use paragraphs in the future :)

 Ok so my first question on fundamentals would be on OOP calling jam ranges.  Nash is only a good guide for a calling range around 8bbs or less.  Now I just want to know what i should be calling at what stack depths (to jams).  For example what stack depth am i calling QJ to a jam? am i right in saying around 11bbs? QJo around 12bbs?What does better QJ or k2? might seem really stupid question but in terms of raw hand strength k2 is better, but id be more reluctant to call a 11bb jam with k2 than i would with JQ.  Can you just give me an idea of what ranges i should be calling with at what stack depth?I spent a lot of time on this question tbh. My initial instinct was to tell u the range i normally call with here. I've found myself recently really questioning some of my decisions in this spot though. ***my estimated openshoving range for villain could be +/- several hands based on the population tendancy of the average player on different sites/buyin levels though - and should be adjusted accordingly. i spoke to several mid-high to high stakes regs from Stars/Merge about this and this is the jamming range we that we arrived at for the average unknown. unknown villain: avg unknown doesn't jam as wide as NASH, but isn't completely nitty either imo. somewhere in between. most have a mr/calling range of strong hands, and also have a mr/folding range but with a pretty low frequency. avg player limps a lot too.unknown villain openshoving range - 99-22,A7s-A2s,K8s-K2s,QTs-Q6s,J7s+,T7s+,96s+,86s+,A8o-A2o,K8o-K6o,QTo-Q8o,J8o+,T8o+,98o,87o (30.8% of hands) our calling range vs that specific range(we need better than 45.88% equity to call vs this specific range): AX, K2s+, K6o+, Q7s+, Q8o+, J7s+, J8o+, T9s, any pairSo all of those hands are +ev to call vs the jamming range I estimated. This is just an estimation of the average player, so obviously half of players jam tighter than this range and the other half jam wider than this range.It would be pretty sexy if we could correctly call an openshove with J7s and K2s 12 deep, wouldn't it? The big problem though is that when we compare the equity of the bottom of our calling range with a wider jamming range we do only slightly better, but when we compare it to a nittier jamming range we do significantly worse. So this means we need to eliminate the borderline hands from this calling range imo.This left me with a range that is doing 49.2% or better vs estimated villain jamming range. Here it is: 33+, AX, K8o+, K6s+, Q9o+, Q8s+, JTo, J9s+.So we are calling with a decent amount of hand combos (32.6%), def not getting run over by jams or anything. We're doing v well vs a wide jamming range, but never overly poorly vs a tight jamming range (unless its just absurdly tight, but thats sooo rare imo).That's definitely a slightly wider range than I call an openshove with vs an unknown readless. So maybe I/we learned something here. If you think your average unknown at your site/buyin level has a nittier jamming range than I'm suggesting, then just eliminate some of the bottom of this calling range. If you think he jams wider, add a few hands to the bottom of this calling range. The fact that almost no villains openshove AA-JJ 12 deep, and somewhat rarely hands like AK/AQ/AJ, really strengthens the overall equity of this calling range. We are dominated less often, and dominate a lot of hands in a wide shoving range.  We are folding more frequently with this calling range than the initial calling range I suggested (the one that was >45.8% equity), but our overall cEV vs villain's jamming range still does better anyways (i compared cEV of each range vs villains calling range to be sure). So basically, the average villain jams a slightly wide range that does not include the top of their range (the hands that do v well vs everything in our calling range). This increases the overall equity of a bunch of hands for us to call with that dominate a lot of hands in a wide jamming range (JTo, T9s, Q9o). According to NASH calling range, these hands are barely calls or even folds at this stack depth - but that calling range is based on the assumption that villain IS jamming the top of his range. Since he isn't, these hands fair a ton better, and folding these hands like I assume most of us do is actually quite -EV.I think a lot of regs, when facing a villain that is jamming wide 12 deep, tend to just use the NASH calling range as a quick guide for what hands to call and fold. I think this is definitely decent, but my point is our range can absolutely be better - and the population tendancy to not have AJ+ JJ+ in a jamming range 12 deep is so common that I think our readless approach needs to be to take that factor into account!This is just my calling range vs an unknown readless. It is not a stagnant calling range. It's not even the optimal calling range vs someone with the exact calling range of my average villain in the example above. It's clearly not optimal vs a nitty jamming range, and we should be calling a good bit wider vs a wider jamming range. It is the best range I can come up with to defend yourself against the population tendancies of the average player (and all players included in that spectrum), until you establish reads and are able to optimize your range toward that particular opponent's frequencies. ***I'm pretty confident in how I approached analyzing this, but I don't want to suggest it is absolutely correct either. I'm no Mersenneary, and I'm not going to pretend to be. It wouldn't surprise me if he came in here and found something that disproved this whole thing. But this is my best attempt at being a little bit revolutionary! It's more of a hypothesis, than a factual statement. Let's talk about it. What do you think?

why is your range 12 bb different than mine? do you disagree with any of my main points in my post? i feel like i made a pretty good argument that because the vast majority of players dont open shove JJ+ AJ+, this makes a lot of the hands i mentioned a call vs the average player...hands that i think most people are snap-folding (by the NASH chart, or any other method u that isnt eliminating JJ+ AJ+ from villains range). i just feel it's pretty obv that since the average player jams us slightly wide 12 deep, and minraises the top of our range, we definitely need to be calling wider than your range of "22-AA,A2o+,KTs+,KJo+,JQs"these aren't huge assumptions i am making about the average players range either imo.

also, i highly doubt that Mers has a truly static calling range. can you explain what you think he means by that? having a fixed calling range from the bb seems almost impossible to be correct to me.the article i wrote is for a completely readless calling range fwiw. that is the range i am suggesting u should have to call jams 11-12 deep (give or take a few hands depending on exact stacks)fwiw, i would guess that if the average player DID openjam AJ+ JJ+ 12 deep, then your ranges would be a lot closer (depending on what the rest of his jamming range, but lets assuem its not insanely nitty). my main point is, hardly anyone is openshoving these hands and that should have a direct impact on our calling range! 

i actually have a lot more hands in the top of the openjamming range than i think the avg player actually jams. i think the average player mr/calls a few more AX and KQ/KJ almost certainly. i just didn't want to push it and make too many big assumptions.i have to get some sleep now, will do the math on the 22 later. i'm pretty sure it's like 9.5-11bbs though ... it was kind of close to a call at 12 bb's with the calcs i did earlier. i mean its a call at 15bb with NASH, but obv noone is actually shoving NASH range 15 deep (or any type of range this would work against)

Firstly you say 'if someone is betting really wide on all boards then donkbetting is less relevant" So for e.g. JThh on 752hh, if villain is cbetting wide, do you chk/call or chk/r? if you chk/r (assume first blind level) lets assume your facing a cbet of 40, do you chk/r to 100 and fold to a jam? or do you chk/r to 120 for the added fold equity and get it in?  I think 120 makes us look much more committed and kind of says "I'm getting it in" to our opponent.  If you are donking this hand, are you donking and getting it in? if turn is an off suit 8 or 9 do you barrel again? Obv Q K A are nut barreling cards here right? or does villain have some K high A high floats in his range on this flop? and do you barrel off your stack as a bluff here? if board pairs? we don't want fold equity with 2 overs and flush draw. we have the best equity vs the widest range possible, and since we are ahead of basically everything...we don't really want a fold from anything, haha.i assume you are concerned about what happens when villain flats the t100 size right? you feel like you have awkward stack sizes on the turn?it's actually not awkward at all, esp given how mcuh equity we have. just jam the turn. u will have plenty of fe still typically, and still a lot of equity when called.also fwiw:if i'm not donkbetting a hand like this because i think villain cbets so wide that a c/r is a lot better, then guess what that means? c/r bluffing is really +ev, and if it's not then it means villain isn't cbetting as wide as we thought and we should have donkbet.so if you want to c/r bluff this flop, i'd just c/r to t95-100...soo many hands in villain's range that will continue vs a c/r at this stack depth and super wet board texture is just going to 3bet jam you anyways. so there is really no point in c/r to 120 with hands you are folding to a jam. with a 70%ish+ cbet range, villain is going to miss this board a lot.to finish answering:if i donk 732hh with JThh, i am bet/calling or jamming the turn no matter what the turn card is (basically whichever option induces my opponent to get in with the widest range...i.e, which will he think looks weakest). you have great equity with this hand. plus on virtually any turn card that you miss you will still have a lot of fold equity. villain's flatting range on this flop is going to be particularly weak too, since almost everyone plays the strong/high-equity hands in their range fast facing a bet on a wet board.

Dealt to Donk King1 [Ts Qs]Donk King1 posts the small blind of 10AlfaDominant posts the big blind of 20Donk King1 raises to 40.AlfaDominant raises to 120.Donk King1 calls 80. (is this a fold preflop? Would i be calling a bet to 100 here readless but folding to 120?)definitely a call and it's not even close. you don't need your call to be +ev, you just need it to be less -ev than folding (better expectation than folding). i'd probably be flatting something like T8s+ here. jamming A8s+, 55+ (we jammed 22-44 pre), and probably just jamming KQ as well (rarely going to be dominated, can dominate some stuff that people 3bet/call, and it sucks to ignore those 2 things and just flat and get cbet off flops we brick).if you think that calling/folding is a close decision here, i'd definitely recommend you read through jhub30's thread starting from the beginning. he and Mers worked on a ton of range type stuff like this.

Dealt to Donk King1 [Ts Qs]Donk King1 posts the small blind of 10AlfaDominant posts the big blind of 20Donk King1 raises to 40.AlfaDominant raises to 120.Donk King1 calls 80. (is this a fold preflop? Would i be calling a bet to 100 here readless but folding to 120?)Dealing Flop [8s 3s 3d]AlfaDominant bets 100.Donk King1 raises to 400, and is all-in.AlfaDominant calls 260, and is all-in.Here i figure i am getting called by like raw A high, any pair etc, but is this still the right move given my equity?  I have 2 overs and a flush draw, so i kinda have to get it in right? Is flatting the flop a better line? or is just folding preflop best?jamming flop is not even close. you have like 50-58% equity vs A high/K high hands depending on if they have a Q or T in their hand as well (or a spade). you also definitely will have some fold equity when jamming this flop as well vs most players, people do 3bet bluff.there is just no way you can flat here. you let villain realize a free 15%ish equity with hands that would've folded to a jam on the flop. if villain jams an A/K/J turn its actually marginally close if you can call at that point considering you can't count on your pair outs as often as on the flop.

Q7 hand:if you are getting induced here, then that means villain is not minraising at this stack depth 70% of the time. Q7o is an ez 3bet shove vs a 70% minraising here with so much fold equity, but tbh hardly anyone actually minraises at this stack depth 70% of the time - so i'd probably assume it's nittier than that until he proves me wrong.for example, i raise 85% 25bb deep but i only mr maybe 40% or so 11 deep as a standard - if my opponent uses my HEM sb pfr% as a blanket assessment of my pfr at all stack sizes, then it will mislead him into 3bet shoving me way too wide 11 deep (it would look like about 70% probably after a a few games or so at diff stack depths). lots of students now say, "but Hokie, all the info we have on him is that he raises 70%. isn't that what we have to go off of?" no. use population tendancies, or the tendancy of the average player in a given situation. the average player that has an overall pfr of 70% doesnt minraise anywhere close to 70% at 11bb stx (people are nittier here, plus people openshove different hands here too). so take your HEM stats for what they actually represent, only an average of your opponents frequencies at all different stack sizes. if you don't have a feel for this particular opponents frequency just yet 11 deep, u do have some info on him: he's opening 70% - what is the average player that opens 70% like? does that average player have a static pfr % (doesnt change at any stack depth)? obv no, so what is the average player who raises wide early in the match's minraising range like 11 deep? my answer is that they don't minraise a ton, but they do minraise/fold enough for us to have some 3bet shove bluffs in our range for sure. jam your AX/KXs/K5o+/QXs+/Q7o+/middling suited connected stuff. you don't need a lot of fold equity with stacks this short for jamming a little wide to be correct anyways.definitely check out some of the articles that mers posted in the stickied thread (3rd down from the top, im having it reposted in a new thread tomorrow though)hope that helps

 Ok so here i just want to make sure that i have no leaks in my thought process.  Basically this is pretty readless, but on this turn im like pretty sure i have the best hand.. i dont think he ever chks bk Qx on this board, so when i hit my 6 here i bet turn for value off of diamond draws, and im chk/calling basically any river bet.  Even if its like a overbet here, i think its a bluff from a tuna alot...Im thinking along the right lines here right?turn lead is good, i'd probably lead a little bigger tho like t50 so that you arent giving your opponent good odds to call in position on you. also, you aren't just leading turn bc you are pretty sure you have the best hand. you are leading the turn also to protect equity from letting the turn go check/check and allowing a bunch of villain's range to realize a free 20% equity on you (that really adds up over the long term). so even if you thought you were NEVER getting called by a worse hand on this turn (as long as there arent a shit ton of better hands that are calling your lead) then you should still be leading here to protect your equity.on the river, you need to bet. people really don't bluff when checked to in this spot that much anyway? how often you do you see someone take a bluff line that looks like this: raise pre + flop check + turn call lead + river bluff when checked to ... not much at all imo.villain is going to have a lot of 2X/3X/A and K high here that checked back the flop on a super wet board. these hands are all checking back when you check the river, but they will also call a river lead a lot of the time! aside from the fact that the average player is a station, your river lead reps a ton of missed draws here too. how would you play missed diamond draws here or something? hopefully it would be lead/lead, since villains range is so weak. so that means you have to be missing some value - just bet half pot or so and given villain good odds to call. and if you were bluffing, probably bet closer to 80% to full pot to give villain worse adds to call.  

In your range your folding 22.  What depth are you calling with 22? sorry, 22 shouldn't be in my folding range. when villain jams 11 deep we need 45.5% equity to call a jam (10bb/22bb)when villain jams 12 deep we need 45.8% equity to call a jamas i mentioned in my article, the avg villain jams relatively wide overall 12bbs and lower. vs a slightly wide jamming range, 22 has about 47% equity - and has similar equity both vs a wide and tight jamming range. so it's definitely a call 12 and lower.when villain jams 13 deep we need 46.1% equity to call a jam, but the problem here is that the average villain really starts jamming a lot nittier 13bbs and higher so it gets a lot more marginal/bad here. if villain is jamming 13 deep with a range of TT-22,A9s-A2s,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,97s,95s,87s,76s,A9o-A2o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo....22 is 45.7% equity vs that range, so not enough equity to call a jam. so again, i think there can be a big difference in the average players ranges at different stack depths - even as small as a 1bb difference in some cases. i dont think we see the average player jamming 13-14 deep with a wide range too often (even if we're wrong, 22 is just barely a call in that case still).

A7: ya, i agree with u. i intentionally used a tighter than normal minraise/calling range just to fully prove my point. the more value hands are added to the minraise/calling range, the better the range i came up with is doing. so like i said, figure out what your average player is like, and expand my range from there (add some hands to the bottom of your range from the first range i listed in article that just did better than 45.8% equity...can't go wrong with that).

 you said something along the lines of 'people have a min/r folding range 12bbs deep but with a lower frequency' does this mean that in general people min/r to induce @ 10-12 bbs and thus we shud have a fairly tight 3b jamming range? this ties in because i was in a similar spot with the q7 hand from post #6. i didnt want to flat i think 10bbs deep, i didnt want to fold, so i think jamming had the best expectation even tho it felt like i was getting induced a bunch. now i think this is hugley dependant on opponents button behavior, but vs a standard player opening 60-70€€€percent of buttons what shud i b doing in these spots with 10-12bbs facing a min/r with hands like 89s t7 t8 tj qj?what should i be doing with rawrer hand strength hands like k2-k5 q6,q7?already covered this already few posts above.i don't think the average player mr/folds "a ton", but then again i dont think the average player minraises 12bb stacks all that much either (like 30-40%?).if we think the average player minraises their sb 12 deep 35% of the time for example, and we think they are openshoving close to the range i used in my article - that means a decent % of the average players minraising range will still be bluffs. and you don't need that much fold equity for a jam to be good at 11-12 bb stacks! check out the ev calculation i did in one of the articles in the forum today. see if you can build a mr/calling and mr/folding range for villain that doesn't consist of hands that i used in my openjamming range for villain 12 deep (so stronger than that range, and weaker). come up with a range of about 30% of total hands. run the math on that, along with the fold equity % u have and let me know what it looks like so while i think the average player is minraise/folding 40-50% of the time he minraises 12 deep, his total minraising range is still only 30% of total hands - and mr folding is only 12-15% of total hands, so thats what i mean by "not a lot" 

you need 45-47% at those stack depths bc your bb is commited already

ok, lots of questions! that's great and i don't want to discourage u from asking a lot overall. let me catch up on these over the next day or two though before you ask more tho please. thanks

AJ: if he's doing it a lot i think it's fine considering the stack depth. if he wasnt doing it much i'd just float. against a high frequency deeper, i'd make a small raise and reevaluate. Q8: ya i like it a lot. wont have too many strong hands here, esp considering hes 3betting the good Ks pre. i'd barrel off here with atc until villain shows me he's capable of calling off light. people fold wayyyy too much here.53s: if hes calling your jams a bit nitty, jamming will be best. otherwise i'd just mr/fold. it really doesn't have the best limping expectation imo. it's really good that you are looking to find the option with best expectation, rather than just jamming NASH relentlessly at this stack depth. good stuff.Q9: this isn't the best board for it. the avg player doesn't cbet this board with a wide range, so when flops go check/check you are going to get a bunch of good turn/river spots to lead with value/air.if villain is cbetting really wide on this board, c/r bluffing will be good too. J9: my intuition says its bad. just estimate what you think his range is, plug your hand into pokerstove on this board texture vs that range. compare the equity of your hand vs that range to the equity you need to call this jam (370/940 or 39.3%). if you are doing better than that, call. if not, fold. try to be realistic about ranges. 54: your hand doesn't do well bet/3bet. and it does plenty well as a check/call! i would just bet/3bet AXhh here, and thats ONLY if i know villain isn't cbetting very wide (otherwise c/r will be way better to get the value from fold equity of villains cbet)think about this more, let me know if u have any more questions. talk to chadders about it too in skype chat or something.A6: vs the top 30-35% of hands, you aren't going to have the best hand or enough equity on a Q9X board to be able to continue. basically all the hands in the top 35% of hands that you were ahead of just picked up 40%+ equity on this flop. so i'd c/f...going to be real hard for u to see rivers unimproved too.JTs: meh, your hand players a ton better as a float (or just as a fold too). there are too many straight draw/top pair/combo combinations that are just going to ship over your flop raise. if you float, esp w decent backdoor equity and a lot of other cards u can rep (Q/K/A) - i think you'll do pretty well on turn/rivers if you bluff when checked to in decent spots. you rep a much more believable range by flatting, and you get his range to respond way better imo. don't just snap raise donkbets just bc you are sketpical of them :)KT: ya just check back the turn with some decent showdown value. you are just turning your hand into a bluff by betting turn - more hands that call you on turn beat you than you are ahead of most likely.i'll get to the non-hand history questions soon.let me know if you have any questions. interesting hands.