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anauna's picture
End game, do you guys use Sage or Nash?

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xSCWx's picture
To my understanding the only

To my understanding the only advantage that Sage has over Nash is that it is easier to memorize. I could be wrong though, I just use Nash as a general guideline as I try to adapt to my opponent.

anauna's picture
thanks for quick

thanks for quick replying!
where can I find nash article?
again thank you

FreakOfNature's picture
I sure there are some much

I'm sure there are some much better articles out there out this and probably even some better 2+2 topics if you search a bit harder, but heres what I read before coming to the conclusion, that, as long as it is going to help my end game, I don't need to understand how it was formulated, just that it is correct :)
http://pokerai.org/wiki/index.php/Nash_Equilibrium
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15/poker-theory/nash-equilibrium-solut...

Haian's picture
sorry for the bump but why

sorry for the bump but why would you nash unless you're being outclassed? You are just giving up your edge, figure out their calling range and exploit it, nash is so easy to counter and having a 0EV button strategy against ppl who know nash calling just can't be good, they're just going to neutralize your button and exploit your calling ranges -> they win. Also against fish this is too wide and against nits its too tight. So, why use it? makes no sense to me and seems just kinda lazy

Radeh's picture
Your edge at high blinds

Your edge at high blinds (7BB or lower) is very small, which is why people use Nash (unexploitable strategy). If villain diverts from the Nash calling range (and 99.9% of villains do), his play will result in a loss for him.

You can ofc adapt it slightly. If an extreme villain folds down to 3BB unless he has a pocket pair or Ax...you can shove any 2.

Also, I only use Nash for my pushing ranges...not calling ranges. I adapt those more according to villain.

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Goats!!! MORE GOATS!!!

RyPac13's picture
Button ranges should be

Button ranges should be adjusted if you see reason to, but vs most fish I think the button ranges are fine.  Vs a tight player you can open up even more.

Calling ranges are a different story.  In my experience, you'll tighten up from Nash's calling ranges vs the average opponent.

Just using Nash and not adapting at all for 8-12bb and less is going to be better for a new player.  Once they grasp a lot of basic concepts they can easily adjust their ranges during game and they will likely be ahead of 95% of players that play these games.  End game is an easier spot to become good at, but like most things in poker it takes a bit of studying and thought to become great at it.

Haian's picture
when using nash you obv.

when using nash you obv. adjust it to your villain but why would you use a range that is based on being at least 0EV instead of a range that is unexploitably +EV and add hands if their calling ranges differ? Like, when 10bb deep you can jam 43% of your hands with every single one of them being +EV. If villain calls 60% you can't jam more but you'll still have a sick profit. If he calls more you can jam slightly more, if he calls less you can jam significantly more. Why shove hands like 67o as a default and significatly cut your EV vs fish? Against good regs, yes, I can see why nash is good since they'll be good at ajdusting their ranges so edges will be so small that its probably not worth it but against fish you're giving up on massive EV imo.

Am I being mistaken that this 43% range is as easy to use as NASH but much more profitable at lower stakes? And if villain has shown the ability to fold hands thoughout the match you can add 10 or 15 percent, this should be easy even for a beginning player imo.

RyPac13's picture
In my experience, even fish

In my experience, even fish call way too tight 10bb deep for you to really think about folding 76o.

I'm going to ask Skates to come in here to clarify some Nash stuff though, he's much more of a technical expert on these things.