may sounds stupid but can some explain the nash chart for me?
Nash is for suckers :)
NASH is an equilibrium strategy, which means that if your opponent is shoveing according to NASH your best counter is to call according to NASH. The purpose of NASH is to pretend the user from being exploited. You could tell your opponent that you are pushing according to NASH and he could not exploit it. That is why NASH usually is used when you do not have an edge against your opponent. But remember; in a no-Edge game you cannot get an edge over your opponent as well. That is why NASH rarely maximizes your EV.
As far as I understand the numbers in the chart refer to the BB level at which it would be profitable to call or shove with ?
Go forth and CRUSH !
Here's a good video about the subject.
You need to be carefull with the calling part of the NASH chart. There is no such thing as unexploitive calling. The NASH calling chart is the counter to the NASH shoveing chart. Of course, if your opponent should push 38% but does shove AA only calling according to the NASH calling chart is a huge mistake.
As for the NASH pushing chart, it is an equilibrium and therefore a „perfect balance“. In a perfect balance you cannot gain. That is why NASH is used when you give yourself no edge otherwise only. If you have an edge and chose NASH instead you are giveing up value. That is why there are so many ‘funny’ people makeing posts like as « nash is for suckers ».
Also, Nash above 7 or 7.5bb is actually a losing strategy vs Nash BB.
Nash OOP is also not relevant at all unless your opponent is purely only shoving or folding from the small blind. If they are limping or minraising any hands, then don't even let the word nash come into your brain.
Nash is one of those things, much like how S.A.G.E. was in the 2006-2008 years, that looks like a great easy to implement strategy that makes you feel good about decisions, but it's a fallacy in most cases and is often misapplied and stunts progress. That said, using Nash blindly at 10bb and below isn't the end of the world for new players, but you can do much, much better.
Barrin's post (with subject "You need to be careful with") is not accurate in many places.
When villain is playing push/fold there is such a thing as unexploitive calling and it is Nash calling. Essentially if villain is only pushing AA and you are calling according to Nash you will profit vs his overall strategy becasue he folds so much. Yes you could exploit him more by folding a lot, but if villain knows you are folding a lot he can then exploit you by open shoving ATC rather than just AA and therefore he could exploit you. The unexploitable calling range is the Nash chart.
It is also not true that Nash is some sort of "perfect balance" in which you cannot gain. The complete opposite is true in fact--you gain if villain chooses ANY strategy other than Nash, so you are guaranteed to be gaining as compared to him choosing Nash! The caveat is you are never gaining the most you could gain. i.e. when villain chooses a strategy that is other than Nash in theory you could choose a perfect maximally exploitive counter strategy vs villain's strategy and gain more than if you used Nash. But then of coures villain could change his strategy and leave you making less than you would have made playing Nash.
In general playing Nash push/fold from the SB is a very viable strategy less than 8bb deep. Vs solid players it is likely optimal to play exactly Nash when playing push/fold, vs weaker players it is better to choose a push/fold strategy that exploits the population tendencies. In my Math in HUSNGs pack I solve for such a strategy vs the population of PokerStars 100s and discuss in more detail when and where Nash can be appropriate--check out that free vid Ryan posted for more about this. From the BB the same will hold--vs the population you can do better if you put in the work, but vs solid players calling Nash when they are playing push/fold is likely best.
My math pack also contains a video on game theory that talks more about the concept of Nash equilibrium and more specific properties, including a graph of the game values for playing Nash push/fold as a function of stack depth.
SAGE is just an approximation of Nash that is made for easy memorization. It is not worth considering when deciding on a push/fold strategy.
EDIT: Cleared up who I was responding to. Sorry for the confusion Ryan!
First I tought: great, someone who cannot read or does not want to understand, but then I noticed that it was only you and that you are just looking for another opportunity to advertise your video pack or hud.
Knowing that any reply to another post of mine would just end with "in my math pack i solved" and/or "in my hud there is a chart included", I will safe myself the trouble.
Oh and btw: buy the pack!
Perhaps we are dealing with a language barrier or issues with semantics. I was addressing specific inaccuracies in your post which was full of them. I specifically referenced them so pretty clear I read your post. Here's another example of an inaccuracy:
You say "If you have an edge and chose NASH instead you are giveing up value". Often times I will choose Nash in order to gain an edge on my opponent. For example if villain is calling with a fairly wide calling range that I think is near nash, it makes sense for me to choose a Nash shoving range to exploit my villain--I won't know exactly which hands villain calls or doesn't call that differ from Nash so I likely can't choose a range that perfectly exploits him, but I also know that likely he's not playing perfect Nash so I can happily benefit from the deviations from Nash he makes. In this way I gain an edge on my villain. If I were using any other strategy it is very likely I would be performing worse in this scenario since we are not exactly sure in what way villain is deviating.
Since there is only so much I can put into a post (even a tl;dr one) I reference an outside source. My math pack happens to be the only place that I know of where specific mathematical criterions for when to use or not use Nash are developed along with maximally exploitive ranges to use instead of Nash. It would be silly of me not to point this out as a wonderful reference for more information on this specific situation since it is an example I work out in detail in the pack. I put a huge number of hours into it and am very proud of how it came out--one of the reasons I put it together was to have an easy place to go for good answers to questions like OPs. So yeah, sure I want people to buy my pack since I like $. But I also want people to learn and stop making systematic errors in their understanding of the game. I love poker theory and these kind of situations (hence I spent an inordinate number of hours making that 8+hour video pack)--sorry if my enthusiasm comes off as spammy to you Barrin.
Good post Adam, but what about my post wasn't accurate? I didn't see you contradict anything that I said.
Edit - Maybe you were talking to Barrin and not me.
Sorry yeah, i was talking to Barrin. I edited my post to make that clear. I still get confused by how the reply button works in these forums haha
Yea it's because I replied to his post first so it lists mine first. It is a bit confusing, not sure how to make it better though.
Well SAGE was only so popular because it was easy to do the math. The same is true about the x4 or x2 odds calculation. It is not giving true results either, but still is the first thing new NL players will learn.
Have you considered to take an interview with the owner of holdemresources.net? He is a poker player as well and recently wrote a software simular to ICMIZER but IMO better for most SNGs.
thanks for your replies, so are SAGE and NASH not realy much use? you all dont seem to be fond of them?
From a novice point of view (my own) they are useful to understand hand values at shorter stacks. But once you have an idea of the concept I switch to game awareness mode.
You are gonna be better off, if you learn why and how much you should push. There is nothing wrong to take NASH as a starting point.
As there seems to be some logic in hand strength, would you mind to tell me, how you would explain to a fish why he has to push 74s for 13.9bb but has to fold 7.3s for 2.6bb?
Math is like love; a simple idea, but it can get complicated !