sorry a bit basic question, but i shoved my 7,8 off suit, into a short stack that had no great fold equity. ( 500chip game st on full tilt)if he calls of and i double him up he is back in it, would a fold be wrong even if nash is screaming its a push.is it the maths/blinds, of me sucking out on him with 7,8 off that gives it its value, or the fact he might fold?, and if you dont think he can fold then reconsider your push even if nash says push?
A fold would be incorrect if the push has greater expectation than the fold.The important variable here is how many effective big blinds were in the stacks.Nash SB can be a good approximator, Nash BB is a little tougher to easily use as an indicator of your strategy, but both are workable. I wouldn't use either one religiously, you can do better even with basic knowledge (Check our Mers end game videos for full explanations, especially his premium ones).As far as why you might shove even vs a loose player, the blinds in the pot have value, any fold equity adds value and that combination minus your loss of equity when called is still often greater than simply open folding your button. But stack sizes in question matter.
ive got all mers and cogs super turbos, premium ones also. and he does flash up nash for a call he makes.any other ones cover nash of the top of your head? not to worry if not. as i only watched the super turbo vids.also when you say "nash SB can be a good approximator,and nash BB tougher to use as indicator" do you mean use your calling range and pushing range in small blinds rather than BB? I didnt quite understand that bit?I only use nash when blinds are big like 25/50 or 30/60. might shove deaper with conectors if theres more of an expected fold.but i seem to find nash telling me to shove a hand thats not that strong, into a loose calling range. so maybe i need to tighten up my nash in very end game,at the horrible risk of blinding out.thanks for the help with this btw
olly
watched mers vid where rryyc225 talks trash to him, and he covers nash and to use bellow 7bb.from what i gathered he said get it in on nash scale 7bb and below and its unexploitable, above this ignore it as the optimal maths play.does that sound about right?my maths in awfull, hence the basic questions.so 7bb below nash is solid enough to at least break even, hope ive understood this one :)
olly
watched mers vid where rryyc225 talks trash to him, and he covers nash and to use bellow 7bb.from what i gathered he said get it in on nash scale 7bb and below and its unexploitable, above this ignore it as the optimal maths play.does that sound about right?my maths in awfull, hence the basic questions.so 7bb below nash is solid enough to at least break even, hope ive understood this one :)
olly
NASH is guaranteed to be +EV from the small blind that short. However, that doesn't mean other strategies won't be better. Against really loose opponents, it can be correct to fold 78o much tigher than NASH suggests, but it's generally going to be a jam that short.
@mersenneary: What u r saying is a bit contradictionary. If Nash would be guaranteed to be +EV it wouldnt make sense to fold 78o vs loose opponents!? I would say Nash guarantees u not to get exploited by ur opponent...Nash is an equilibrium and if both players use it, nobody will make any money. But still, if ur opponent is calling too loose u can exploit him by pushing tighter. Often players are calling too tight (tighter than nash), so u can exploit them by pushing looser. As always, poker is a game of adaption. The one adapting earlier is making the money ;)
A good rule of endgame is to not worry about equilibriums and stuff like that, just play each hand in the way that gets it the maximum amount of expectation. The equilibrium kind of just happens when you're doing that.
ok thanks for that
olly
Mers said Nash is guaranteed +EV at 7bb or less, including 87s. You would NOT fold 87s versus a loose opponent at 7bb I believe (it's +EV to shove!).Just don't get too tight when shoving vs a loose caller, that's one of the easier fallacies to fall into (and similar to opponents that are too tight with calling ranges when you're shoving every hand, they think waiting for A9 is the correct counter strategy when it just reinforces the profit of your shove every hand strategy).