I have played a few of the really good players (Livb112, R-Quaresma) in the super-turbos and have noticed that they sometimes shove a lot lighter then nash states you should. At this point should I still be calling at nash? How should I adjust at 15 to 10 big blinds. Also I was watching a session between Livb112 and Primo today and I saw Livb112 call a 10x open shove with 10 7 suited. Nash says that you should call up to 7.4. In summary what I'm wondering is how these good players are deviating form nash and still remaining profitable.
Tough to say, really depends on the situation.As for adjusting to players that shove very light, calling the Nash BB is usually a good counter strategy. That's too loose against most open shovers (as they tend to be quite a bit tighter than Nash SB for instance and you can usually do better than that), but should be appropriate vs somebody that is shoving very wide.Calling shoves with Nash isn't something you choose to do, at least as far as playing shove or fold. If your opponent starts shoving or folding at 20bb, you're forced into his shove or fold game.As for being on the button, it would be too difficult to explain well in a reasonable amount of time, but we have dozens of videos about end game strategy that covers small blind strategy 10-20bb deep (check the video planning guide in the articles section for some good videos for standard or premium members).It's also quite possible mistakes are made, even by the best players in the game. It doesn't mean you shouldn't respect the best players, everybody makes mistakes. The best players a few years ago probably wouldn't survive the $550s today, the level of knowledge and improvement is just constantly growing at a solid rate. But nobody is nearly perfect, at least not yet ;)
Although I might be not in the position to say soMy guess would be that a call with T7 is on the mistake site.Even against a 60% shoving range T7 does like 43% that call would result in - 1,6 overall ev approx. 10bb deep if you took out the monster which to assumed to minraise or limp it goes up a bit but stiull wouldnt be a good call though. But a little gamble has everone in him I guess.:)
Perhaps he thought a lot of Primo's shoving range would be suited connectors like 45s, 75s, 67s 98s etc. + Kxs and Ax. In that case maybe it's closer... but it does still seem a bit too wide. Although he's an incredible player so I am not one to judge.
Coaching page + Blog
Hmm I thought about this for a bit, good points you made katipoAll in all the call gets +ev if it is better than folding. to call a 10bb shove you need 45% equity to make it better than folding.reasonable ranges to shove for 10 bb are hands that have a lot of equity but play bad post flop(small pairs or smtimes Ax x equals small) and dont have too much value to induce a jam over a minraise.(like AJ-AK) plus some semi bluffs (78s for example)a reasonable shoving range at 10bb is for example , 88-22,ATs-A2s,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,ATo-A2o edit: shall be this 88-22, ATs-A2s,64s-97s,56s-98s, ATo-A2o vs this T7 has 45,8% equity which makes a call better than folding! Of course based on tendencies you can widen this range with Kx weaker suited cards, etc...if you for example take out AT the result gets dramatically betteri find the result is really interesting !so shame to my too quick reply. BTW. rand note: if opponent only plays shove or fold at 10bb and is shoving more than the top 72%(what nearly nobody in real life does) a call gets zero to+ EV too. good luck
Did you forget to add in hands like KQ, KJ, KT, K9, QT, QJ, QT, Q9, K8 into this range? It looks like you missed the offsuit hands and that should make a drastic difference.
It was more a theoretical range i gave there.Of course u can add severall weaker and stronger hands to this range often this is done by the "shover" but my point was if you have the knowledge or the assumption your opponent is minraising hands which play allright postflop (Broadways..KQ type stuff. ) or are very strong (AJ+ or 99+) and you can narrow his shoving range down to hand that either often dont flop good or are often outdrawn on the flop like A rag or small pair plus bluffs (suited connectors)... then a call with T7 might get profitable, but of course you need quite a good knowledge about the shoving range there and how it is specifically looking. i think it is quite common that hands like small pairs or A 5 want to realize there equity by getting it in pre instead minraising and getting called and outdrawn.to balance this strong part of the shoving range a lot of people add small suited connectors which are close or are a shove with nash.I dont really know whether this makes sense at all, and i am not sure whether i can explain my point in correct english or whether i am on a wrong path of thought.pls correct me if you see something big i miss theregl all
ah sorry i see what you mean! I just copied pasted the hands from pokerstove in this was kinda misleading (no, wrong) my range above should be this :88-22, ATs-A2s,64s-97s,56s-98s, ATo-A2owow big sorry to thatits just pokerstove which does not name the right combination althou right picked
it was a bad call v my range for sure, but it's like 1/60th of his calling range or whatever, doesnt really impact anything that much, but def. not +EV (imo)
Thanks a lot for your input primo, appreciate that.of course we all are humans even the best players do mistakes,etc, but anyway I persnally was looking for a good reasons livb was making for that call. so i was looking for a shoving range which 1st) makes this call right and 2nd) is not too exploitable(without knowing the range ) and at least halfway reasonable( though primo is prob. damn good aswell)I think my shoving range I gave above is reasonable at least for some players. and it is strong: (it does 49:51 against Nash calling range for 10bb)but still with T7s not even on the bottom of the 10bb calling nash but at 7.xbb you get the right price to call at 10bb (you do ca.(46-54)) so what i learned from this was: not even against weak ranges another weak hand can do well,but:against ranges with a relative high overall strength the right picked cards can do well. hope this makes sensethx