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sderrico's picture
Personnal expectations

Hi everyone,

I play head's up sit and go of 10$ on pokerstars. After watching PrimordialAA videos saying several time "play volume". I tried to multi-tabling: I crashed and burned my bankroll of 500$ (no more glory and a lot of sadness).

I start back to play sng at 2$. I do not know why or how. But after playing and playing, I get used to 4 tabling and now holdem manager is showing a ROI of 8% for an average of 15 games/hours.

Question1: How is 15 games per hour?
- Is it an average? Is it good? Is it possible to increase, like going to 30 games per hour?
- I saw video of people playing like 20 tournament of 9man-180man at the same time. With head's up tourney, what should I expect?
-While moving up to 5$, 10$ and even more, is it achievable to keep the pace of 15 games per hour?

Question2: When should I move to 5$ game? Then when should I move back to 10$?
Considiring of what I hear from player or read on poker forum:
- some player said they have a ROI of 20%-30% at small stake;
- people seems to recommended a bankroll of 25-50 buy-in;

Your opinion? :)

Question3: How do you calculate hourly rate? What hourly rate to expect?
- Right now, can we say that my salary as a poker player is around 2.40$? (15 games x 8% x 2$)? (I won't quit my job right now)

-Is the next thinking is realistic for a player that play poker 20 hours per week?

nbr. of games | ROI | buy-in | nbr. of hour

15 games * 10% * 2$ * 20 hours = 60$/week + 12$ (rakeback)
15 games * 10% * 5$ * 20 hours = 150$/week + 30$ (rakeback)
15 games * 10% * 10$ * 20 hours = 300$/week + 60$ (rakeback)
15 games * 10% * 20$ * 20 hours = 600$/week + 120$ (rakeback)
15 games * 10% * 50$ * 20 hours = 1500$/week + 300$ (rakeback)

*rake of been calculate as 10% of the buy-in
*rakeback have been calculate as 20% of the rake

Thank you for your time for reading my post and post comment,
Those comments will enlighten me about my personal expectations.

Have a nice day!
Sebastien

sebastien(a)hollox.net

DeuceHigh's picture
Different roi's

Dunno much about multi tabling and expected roi's for different levels, so i can't really help you there.

But i do know that your thinking is faulty when you assume that your ROI will be the same at all levels. It decreases level after level, and if you have 8% at the 2$'s, i would imagine you could even be just breakeven at the 50's, 4-tabling.

IMHO, you should focus more on improving your A game, and not on mass multi tabling and hourly rate. Think about it in the long run. You could become great at multi tabling, dealing with fish, and having a nice hourly playing the 50's, even make a living in some countries, but if you get as good as some of the coaches on this site you can make much more by one tabling much higher stakes. And its more fun!

 

Diceman's picture
Here goes...

1)  I'm also not too sure about how many games per hour is normal for 4-tabling (depends if you're playing turbo or regular speed, and on which site) but that seems like a good amount

2)  The size of your bankroll when moving up at those stakes sounds pretty good being at least 25 BI. However, this also depends on how comfortable you are, and how important it is to you that you don't bust your roll.  You said you've already busted it once, so if you don't want to ever do it again, I'd probably wait until I had a roll of ~$100 before I moved up to the $5s (a little early, but for this jump I'd tend to move up early to avoid the higher rake at the $2 games.)  But, depending on how important the money is to you at this point, you could be slightly more aggressive with your bankroll management.  There are lots of bankroll management strategies out there.

3) You're anticipated hourly rate isn't entirely correct: "(15 games x 8% x 2$)?" because when you win, you're winning $1.85 and when you lose you're losing $2.15, so it's gonna make your projected rate a little inflated.  However, like DeuceHigh said, you can't really anticipate keeping the same ROI when moving up, although I wish nothing less than for you to have a 10% ROI 4-tabling the $50s :)  

If I were you, I would focus more on getting better and not so much on getting in as much volume as possible.  Yes, volume is important and Primo was definitely right for encouraging people to put in good volume.  But when starting from the lowest stakes, IMO it's significantly harder to get better and move up while playing a lot of tables.  I'd recommend dropping down to one or possibly two tables to improve your game.  If you do this, I'll bet your ROI will go up and you'll feel much better about your game.  Then, when you have gotten a lot better and more comfortable with most spots, you can try gradually adding tables again.  So all I'm really trying to say is that if you want to make more money, you should think long-term and that starts with improving as a poker player.  It'll certainly take longer to play 15 games one-tabling than 4-tabling, but I think you'll get better a lot faster this way, be able to move up faster, and probably enjoy playing more considering all these things.  I hope this all makes sense and best of luck :)

sderrico's picture
Thank you DeuceHigh and

Thank you DeuceHigh and Diceman!

I will follow your wisdom. May I ask what is an average ROI and how many table per hour should I aim for the 50$ tables?

Thanks again!
Sebastien

royal flash's picture
dude seriously stop fucking

dude seriously stop fucking thinking that way and juggling with potential figures and expectations.
i did that 3 years and those were wasted. well i mean i won... experience... ;)

1 buck an hour is a lot of bucks longterm, and enables healthy development and BR growth.
of course you can make 10 bucks an hour multitabling the 1$ husngs. for maybe 2 hours.
but then when the hour that you lose 15$ with the same method you're very likely screwed and maybe decide to quit poker. for 2 weeks or something. then decide that you can make more quicker with another form of poker, but ultimately you're never getting anywhere this way.

and tbh those guys that kill the games from day one are maybe 10 percent of all winning players (so around 1% or less of all players) but those are the guys that you think you/we have to compare yourself to because those are the guys you read about.

nodeg's picture
How many tables do reg

How many tables do reg grinders play normally?  I mean, at $50+ is it common to 4 table+ when grinding your limit?  That seems crazy to me, but I'm pretty new to HUSNGs so maybe I'm still adjusting to the hand/hour rate of an hu table.  What winrate at the low stakes games would you say would be a good marker for moving up?

nodeg's picture
How many tables do reg

How many tables do reg grinders play normally?  I mean, at $50+ is it common to 4 table+ when grinding your limit?  That seems crazy to me, but I'm pretty new to HUSNGs so maybe I'm still adjusting to the hand/hour rate of an hu table.  What winrate at the low stakes games would you say would be a good marker for moving up?

twostate's picture
Playing volume doesnt mean

Playing volume doesnt mean you have to play 4 tables, it just means you should try and play as long and as many sessions as you can profitably. If you are used to single tabling 300 games per month make it your goal to play 400 the next month.Agree with what everyone else is saying, forget about results (especially at this level) or you will just end up being disappointed. Make goals like "I will play my A game every game" and volume goals as above "I will play an extra 100 matches this month" or even "I will review my last session before I play my next". If you focus on goals like these your ROI and Bankroll will surely increase.Don't focus on the money side of it and don't look too far forward. Concentrate on crushing the $10's at the moment and you will be playing the $50's alot quicker than if you spent all day thinking about playing the $50's and not concentrating on the level you are at. :)

nodeg's picture
I know better than to worry

I know better than to worry about the ROI/winrate when learning a game.  I'm just curious what ROI is considered to be crushing at HUSNGs because I'm new to sng play in gen.  For example, if you get 2bb/100 hands in a large sample it's considered to be beating(sometimes crushing) a limit.  I read an article at FTR by Spenda for cash players that stated you should be beating your current limit before trying to move up, and listed 2bb/100 as a benchmark as one of his recommended requirements.  Is there an HUSNG equiv?

kingcobra's picture
Well first of all I don't

Well first of all I don't think 2bb/hr is anything more than a barely break even player, I wouldn't get too excited about that, it's true though that you should be beating the stakes you're at before you look to move up, it's going to depend on the stakes you're playing though to determine what this number should be.  I guess if you really need a number, like you have with the cash example, then 5% ROI would be reasonable, you need to keep in mind though that this doesn't mean you'll be profitable at the next level but may indicate that you should give it some sort of shot and see where you're at.As far as our friend looking for more volume goes, I can't remember where this saying comes from, but first you get good and then you get fast.  Maybe you just get good and don't worry at all about getting fast, volume isn't about how many matches you play at the same time or even how many you play per hour, it's the volume of money you put in per hour, which can also be accomplished by playing higher.  Especially for someone playing micro stakes, you should worry more about getting good enough where you can beat higher stakes and by doing this you'll effect your earn rate per hour a lot more than worrying about how many matches at a time at the penny ante games :)