In the scenario you describe I think it is optimal for you to be shoving your weaker holdings and flat calling the hands that can take flops. If you shove every hand then even stupid opponents will eventually adapt. If you don't think you will be playing a long series of games against this player then you should probably just be trying to figure out which is more +EV.
If you have a hand like QJo, you can use pokerstove to figure out what equity your hand will have when called by his estimated range. You can also use pokerstove to see the percent of hands that you are assigning to his estimated calling range and the percent of hands that you assign to his estimated opening range. If you divide the percent of hands in the calling range by the percent of hands in his opening range you will get the percent of the time that he opens/folds. Every time he opens/folds you can figure out how many BB you are profiting on the shove and compare that to how many BB you expect to profit when you flat call his open range OOP.
I don't think that there is any simple formula that is going to help you estimate what sort of profit you expect to have taking a flop OOP with this hand (you have to estimate this or a program like HEM might be able to tell you over a big sample), but I think that the best move in a vacuum is going to be to shove rather than play OOP.
Quote: "but I think that the best move in a vacuum is going to be to shove rather than play OOP"
I would think that if there is a hand that could be more profitable to take a flop with than reshove would be QJ.
Flating these hands that play well, and shoving A8's and 44's for value and some junk to balance if timing is right seems optimal to me.
Plus QJ is great post flop (even OOP, easy to check shove when you flop 2 overs and gutshot,etc.., lots of good flops really) but isnt so great allin since you're dominated a lot by his calling range (even though its +ev because of the fold equity, you still have that with junk).
I dont know, seems to me that if it is ever good to flat oop with those stacks, it is with TJ's QJ's, etc.
I am a noob so I`ll take any kind of criticism:) If ooponent is opening a lot and not calling shoves light , which is better :
-to shove hands like medium SC and small pairs and defending broadways
or
-shoving Broadways and pairs and defending SC`s
or
-maybe there is other option ?
I pokerstoved some ranges and my opinion is that it can go either way .So if he is kinda passive postflop and I think that I have an edge postflop I`ll probably call. If he is aggro postflop , probably shoving is better ?
If we are 20bb deep and he is min raising every BTN , do you defend small pairs or 3b big/shove ?
I'm too lazy to make a long reply on this right now, but both mientjeuh and me are huge fans of flatting a ton of playable hands and rejam a fairly tight range (including some less playable shit like K2o) vs most.
Obviously its opponent dependant but I would say calling with hands that play reasonably well post, shove with hand with low showdown value/not great playability post/rags/strong hands
obviously it should be balanced well otherwise it will become too transparant
Hey newffdawggggg, I was actually wondering the same thing. Like let's say that my opponent is opening his button 70% with a minraise and we are 20bb effective and I have KTo. Do you guys usually shove here or call?
However, that's also a bit opponent dependend - for instance against someone who's easy to play against post, I'd be much more inclined to flat this than against a good opponent who's giving me a hard time post flop.
bump
Disclaimer: I didn't do any actual math for this.
In the scenario you describe I think it is optimal for you to be shoving your weaker holdings and flat calling the hands that can take flops. If you shove every hand then even stupid opponents will eventually adapt. If you don't think you will be playing a long series of games against this player then you should probably just be trying to figure out which is more +EV.
If you have a hand like QJo, you can use pokerstove to figure out what equity your hand will have when called by his estimated range. You can also use pokerstove to see the percent of hands that you are assigning to his estimated calling range and the percent of hands that you assign to his estimated opening range. If you divide the percent of hands in the calling range by the percent of hands in his opening range you will get the percent of the time that he opens/folds. Every time he opens/folds you can figure out how many BB you are profiting on the shove and compare that to how many BB you expect to profit when you flat call his open range OOP.
I don't think that there is any simple formula that is going to help you estimate what sort of profit you expect to have taking a flop OOP with this hand (you have to estimate this or a program like HEM might be able to tell you over a big sample), but I think that the best move in a vacuum is going to be to shove rather than play OOP.
yeah, really?
Quote: "but I think that the best move in a vacuum is going to be to shove rather than play OOP"
I would think that if there is a hand that could be more profitable to take a flop with than reshove would be QJ.
Flating these hands that play well, and shoving A8's and 44's for value and some junk to balance if timing is right seems optimal to me.
Plus QJ is great post flop (even OOP, easy to check shove when you flop 2 overs and gutshot,etc.., lots of good flops really) but isnt so great allin since you're dominated a lot by his calling range (even though its +ev because of the fold equity, you still have that with junk).
I dont know, seems to me that if it is ever good to flat oop with those stacks, it is with TJ's QJ's, etc.
I think you should shove every hands because it's more fun that way. Win or lose it's just a card game. Bling Bling money ain't a thing.
Handuy you live of Poker right? =)
I am a noob so I`ll take any kind of criticism:) If ooponent is opening a lot and not calling shoves light , which is better :
-to shove hands like medium SC and small pairs and defending broadways
or
-shoving Broadways and pairs and defending SC`s
or
-maybe there is other option ?
I pokerstoved some ranges and my opinion is that it can go either way .So if he is kinda passive postflop and I think that I have an edge postflop I`ll probably call. If he is aggro postflop , probably shoving is better ?
If we are 20bb deep and he is min raising every BTN , do you defend small pairs or 3b big/shove ?
I'm too lazy to make a long reply on this right now, but both mientjeuh and me are huge fans of flatting a ton of playable hands and rejam a fairly tight range (including some less playable shit like K2o) vs most.
"Repetition is the mother of all skill"
Obviously its opponent dependant but I would say calling with hands that play reasonably well post, shove with hand with low showdown value/not great playability post/rags/strong hands
obviously it should be balanced well otherwise it will become too transparant
"Repetition is the mother of all skill"
Hey newffdawggggg, I was actually wondering the same thing. Like let's say that my opponent is opening his button 70% with a minraise and we are 20bb effective and I have KTo. Do you guys usually shove here or call?
I'd flat this and shove when we're below 15 bb.
However, that's also a bit opponent dependend - for instance against someone who's easy to play against post, I'd be much more inclined to flat this than against a good opponent who's giving me a hard time post flop.