Say, hypothetically, one had a 40 buy-in roll for the $34.50s ($1380). Then say their roll got run down to $800-$920 (35-40 buy-ins at the $23 level)... is that when you have to move down.
Something that's always been a head scratcher for me is if you have to move down when something like this happens, then you don't truly have 40 buy-ins right? It's more like 14.
I know trujm (Jigsaw) used to tell me that you keep playing at the level you were initially rolled for rather than moving down because otherwise "what's the point in having that big a roll" or something along those lines.
Never play a level higher than you want to just bc you are rolled for it. That is terrible advice for 99% of winning poker players and 100% of losing poker players.
I first like to tell people to never play a buyin level they are not rolled for. Check out xSCWx's article and Skates comments about br management to help determine what you are and are not rolled for. You can always be more conservative, but I would never be more aggressive than they each recommend.
Now, say we determined that you should absolutely not play higher than $33s in your situation (hypothetical situation as some players can play $55s on that roll and some shouldn't even play the $10s). So what we need to figure out is which buyin level is best for you, $5-$33 at this current moment.
You have lost about $300-400 dollars recently, so you are on a 10 buyin downswing give or take. Ask yourself a few questions:
a) How well do you think you're playing?
b) How frustrated are you?
c) Where will you be if you lose another 5-10 buyins at the $33s?
If you can objectively answer these, you should have very little problems figuring out if you should play the $33s, or take a step or two down to get your confidence and focus back.
It is extremely hard to quantify your edge once it starts to deteriorate. It is hard enough to figure out what kind of an expectation (winrate or ROi) you have in any level of games when you play consistently, let alone when you are inconsistent. So, just assume when you are not playing well AND you are losing money, your ONLY priority should be fixing this and playing to the best of your ability again. So how do you do that? You play at a level where the variance and possibility of losing a few buyins can't easily take away from your focus. This will allow you to get back to playing your "A game" a lot quicker than playing the $33s bc "you are rolled for them."
Trujm is probably a pretty good player who can teach a lot of beginners some good things about the basics of poker, but if you look at his graph he has never really challenged himself. When he says "you're rolled for that level, play it" we're talking about a guy who plays regular speeds with a virtually unlimited roll. Just because he probably cashes out most of his winnings each month with a very solid and safe ROI, doesn't mean the same things apply to other players, particularly new players, struggling players and players that play turbo speed poker (which is higher variance).
I feel this is one case where he really loses sight of the situational differences husng players can have. He is a long time winning, grinding low variance type player and that advice is most suited towards career players with high ROIs who experience very little variance. It is more than fine to follow his path, 99% of poker players would be better off in his spot, but I feel like he's really sacrificing potential earnings by choosing to play mid to low high stakes games with a high ROI rather than push himself and his bankroll and move up to play higher games.
Looking more closely, it appears he is at least now playing some $200 buyin games (with good success), so he is continuing his climb in stakes, I'm just pointing out that he takes very little risk compared to most players which is kind of ironic bc what you said he advocated to you is a very risky thing (staying a buyin level just bc you are rolled for it). Disregard my comments about that if what you are saying he said is incorect or mistaken.
agreed, great players like M@D@M@D@D@NE and croixdawg have both played SIGNIFICANTLY lower stakes than what they were rolled for, M@D had almost 150 or 200k and he was playing $100 HU SNGs for a long time until he was super comfortable w/them and was SURE he was a winning player there, what ry says in his first sentences is spot on
edit: also, you having a 40 BI roll being sufficient only applies if you are 100% SURE that you are a winning player at 33s over a decent sample, if you have ANY doubt, think you might not be playing your A game, etc., etc., than you need to set a point when you are going to move down, for me personally, in this situation, I would never drop below 800 and still be at 33s, I would drop to 22s at 800 or so and then maybe take another small shot at 33s once I worked my way back up to 1200ish
My piece of shit laptop that I can't afford to fix just conked out after I wrote a long reply here, so let's see how much I remember...
Thanks for the responses Ry and Primo. I'm sorry you have to see my graph right now - I'm sorry I have to see it! I'm definitely going through the "what does it all mean" stage right now. You guys know that one? My downswing is actually more like 1k, which just can't be right for the 33s and 22s. I did move down to the 22s today but first I went ahead and upgraded to full membership yesterday and went straight to Primo's "From Scratch" series because I knew my fundamentals and intermediate concepts needed review if I were to get out of this slump. I have to say, after watching the Intermediate videos I felt I was thinking on a higher level when playing today. A lot of what was outlined I do already, just having figured things out from playing and playing, but to understand the 'why' of everything really helped to unscramble things in my brain and provided me with a focused approach to today's matches. I also had my emotions under control so it should've been a good day overall.
But alas, it was all for not. The runner-runners and such continued and my bankroll took another hit. I don't know, I think it might be time to cash out what's left of the roll to pay off some bills and such - put it to better use than just watching it melt away. Now, I hate bad beat crying more than anyone else. In fact, it's what turns me off from most poker forums - all the whining. So I'll try to make it just this one time.
To predict some of the responses, I know that as long as I feel I'm playing solid heads up poker and keeping my emotions under control that I'll be winning long term and that I'll get out of this downswing, but I think that would've been easy to swallow if this was all happening at the beginning of the downswing rather than right in the middle of this ongoing hell. I thought I was protected with 40 buy-ins but now even after having moved down the roll continues to deteriorate and I'm faced with the decision of playing lower and building up the roll all over again - if I could ever dodge some of the sickness going on here - or cashing it out... and the time involved with grinding back up is so daunting I'm just not sure boys.
Again, all this bitching is really boring to read I know. But thanks for reading and hey thanks for writing such thorough responses. For my own ego I should clarify that as silly and borderline petulant as my poker life comes across I've actually got a sensible head on my shoulders and in the real world I'm a creative genius. The lower end of my genius is currently being shopped around Hollywood as we speak (not like anyone's buying anything in this economy), it's a feature length film that you guys should pretend to be interested in: www.dingusmovie.com
when im going through a really rough patch switching a % of my game over to reg speed games helps alot, your winrate will be much higher, and therefore you will experience less variance, give it a try for a day or two and see how it feels before you go quitting poker all together. All great players experience downswings, dibasio says he has had a 30+ buyin downswing at reg speed games, which he has a very solid winrate in, so expect it, alhough obv it should not be common place. Just continue to watch videos, work on your game, play only when your feeling good, and there is no way you shouldn't succeed, but go ahead and try some reg speeds for a few days and see if it helps out. Best of luck!!
-Primo
Primo your videos are incredibly helpful, I can only imagine how pumped Ry & co. were when you joined the site. What I like about your videos is that I get a sense of how much thought and work you put into the tutorials ahead of time. The power points in your from scratch videos are great and I've screen capped a few slides so I can pull them up for easy reference while playing.
Thanks for the tips, we'll see what happens over the next few days. Maybe I'll take some time off to get back to writing. Reg speeds might not be such a bad idea but when faced with tight-passive opponents I might tilt when the game goes half an hour :P
hi, i'm a low stake player 20 to 30$ buyin ...u can see me at "vulcain666" on Ultimate bet ...I'm not a big winner but i win ....
anyway...what I suggest u is just to stop playin for couple days (2 or 3) then u will get the motivation to play the regular speed games without gettin bored.
right now u r used to turbos...u have a big downsing and if u go to the regular speed u might just not be able to focus long enough specially with the TILT...so get out of it couple days and get back to the 10$ games normal speed and play like 10 of them so if u lose the 2 first ones it' s fine u know u gotta play 8 more after to end ur session positive...if it goes fine just keep goin!
and another advice while u r on tilt is to shut ur "chat" window while you play...and even to turn the sound off so the noise of the chips won't scare u no more ...lol
gl mate!
thanks alot man :), I put a ton of work into that series, and I hope you'll like the rest of the archive videos as they are released, there are alot of ones in there im really proud of =], best of luck, and keep us updated with how you do!
Hey Primo, could you clarify something in your videos?
In the slides for the different player classifications and how we adjust, you often say "restrict our raising range to above average hands and those that play well post-flop". What kinds of hands are we talking here - specifically, I'm not so clear on what "hands that play well post flop" would include. Thanks.
npnp, this was recently discussed in the Part 2 of that video, in the comment section, the link to the comments / my response is here: http://www.husng.com/node/490#comments
Yup, that clarifies that. So rather than switching to the regulars I dropped to a level lower than I'm used to - the $11s. Lots of maniacs there. My day started off with the same bad run of cards that I've been accustom to lately but then, like a switch turned on, I played the $11 4-mans and my hands held up and I began to feel empowered by playing solid heads up poker and actually being rewarded for it. There's still a steep climb to get back to where I was so we'll just have to see how things go but I think today's confidence boost was important - if nothing else, it'll keep me playing another day.
And if my head just eventually explodes that'll still be pretty cool, won't it?
hey if your head explodes put it on youtube it will at least make you feel better when you are the most watched video
Comment:
like woah dude, don't blow it, just play LAG man