I think I can answer my own question after seeing this hand play out, but here's the history on our villain. He's clearly a LAG donk. He just gave up a big pot two hands ago by calling 24s in the big blind, leading out on the flop with a flush draw, then going check-check on the turn-river. So seeing him check the turn on the previous hand told me maybe the same thing was going on here, he was betting out with a draw or something weak on the flop and then gave up on the turn. I wanted to bet him off whatever weak holding he had - and while I was wrong about his holdings in this case, maybe it's fruitless to try and take advantage of a LAG player's weakness if I don't have a hand myself because they are going to see the river anyway?
PokerStars Game #27664264066: Tournament #159940852, $33.00+$1.50 Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2009/04/30 13:30:25 ET
Table '159940852 1' 2-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: DntCaltACmBk (1860 in chips)
Seat 2: PIayItSmart (1140 in chips)
DntCaltACmBk: posts small blind 10
PIayItSmart: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DntCaltACmBk [Kh Tc]
DntCaltACmBk: calls 10
PIayItSmart: raises 60 to 80
DntCaltACmBk: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [5c Qh Jd]
PIayItSmart: bets 80
DntCaltACmBk: calls 80
*** TURN *** [5c Qh Jd] [4h]
PIayItSmart: checks
DntCaltACmBk: bets 200
PIayItSmart: raises 480 to 680
DntCaltACmBk: raises 1020 to 1700 and is all-in
PIayItSmart: calls 300 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (720) returned to DntCaltACmBk
*** RIVER *** [5c Qh Jd 4h] [6s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
PIayItSmart: shows [5h Jc] (two pair, Jacks and Fives)
DntCaltACmBk: shows [Kh Tc] (high card King)
PIayItSmart collected 2280 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2280 | Rake 0
Board [5c Qh Jd 4h 6s]
Seat 1: DntCaltACmBk (button) (small blind) showed [Kh Tc] and lost with high card King
Seat 2: PIayItSmart (big blind) showed [5h Jc] and won (2280) with two pair, Jacks and Fives
I see where you are coming from but I am not sure about the call on the flop?
He has bet preflop, then cbets pot size with a straight draw his only draw on this dryish board, unless he has a hand? Either at this point he is betting for value or he is betting for the draw, or its a std cbet.
Personally I think I would want to 3bet him. If he calls you can see the turn knowing he has a hand drawing or middle/bottom pair, if he 4bets you know he has a hand, or he folds the draw/nothing. If he calls the draw on flop, turn is hard for him to bet again so he may check allowing you to see the river card free
With the call on the flop, if he fires again immediately what are you doing? if he check raises what are you doing? you have less information to work with.
Plus the all in I don't much like :) , he bet Pre, he bets pot on the flop, check raise on the turn, this kind of says I had an average hand, and now im playing it. considering you were drawing to 8 cards seems a bit of shot in the dark.
This is the kind of hand I blow up in a lot though so what do i know? :)
It's usually better to take advantage of a lag player's weakness by turning up your later street aggression, particularly on the river. A lot of these guys like to see flops, turns and rivers, but end up playing way too many types of hands on those streets and end up very weak on the river, making it the prime spot to steal the pot.
Generally speaking, a lot of lags won't even give up by the river, so it's important to recognize the difference between a bad lag who will give up when his hand misses and one that will just stack off super light or turn anything into a bluff. Vs the former you can run them over on later streets just like you would on early streets vs a tight/weak player, vs the latter you're better off just waiting to put chips in when you have a hand then value-betting and bluff catching your way to victory.
I can see that if on the flop you want to see the turn card cheap, for 80, then fine, but you need to decide what you are doing if you miss and he raises or check-raises, which is presumably fold.
I also might be tempted to check behind the turn there, but I can see that betting may be worth the odd fold..
how would you play it?
call the flop
check the turn
raise the river (assuming he is betting the river)