Why would you want to fold the best hand?Clearly the correct play is to check the flop and never fold this board run-out, and definitely bet the river.Thinly-veiled brag is thinly veiled.

I'd fold the turn.I'm interested to know, when you c-bet that flop what are you going to do if he raises you?Are you going to get your stack in as it is a good board for him to bluff you on? If he bet that river half pot are you calling, as the Q only helps you?Artemis, I dont know if you are being sarcastic but I would check that flop.      

No sarcastic. Easiest check ever without reads vs non stationy/aggro opponent. If you bet, you bet to induce a float like now and therefore NEVER fold turn, which is why I think never fold turn. When you 3bet and check flop you almost always have showdown value so checking flop does turn your hand faceup whereas if you bet you might get floats from overs and/or back door draws, etc, so betting with the intention of never folding is fine.

Qattack, I think there is kind of this notion that when you 3-bet you need to lead the flop, but it is not the case.When you bet you have to ask why. As a bluff, to induce a bluff, for value, etc.I think you want to to bet that flop if you feel that your opponent will bluff raise you or float you. In your case that is what happened, so if you c-betted for that reason it is a very logical play. I'd expect to get raised on that flop a very high percent of the time. Another good percent I'd expect him to call then bluff the turn.I agree with Artemis, if you are betting that flop you are doing so to get your stack in, so you should call the turn if that is the play you are making.You could argue for c-betting that flop for value, but I think there is more Qs in villains range than there are 4567 hands. And even the hands you do get value from will probably not call but turn there hand into a semi-bluff (maybe overcards too), so you have to be prepared to get your hand in. If you are c-betting for value and your opponent is not very bluffy I would fold the turn.I'm a bit of a nit, that is why I check. I check with the intention of not folding either (most cases) but it keeps the pot smaller and induces more bluffs. It also allows you to value bet on a later street depending on how the board comes.I rarely bet to induce bluffs when I dont have the best hand, I like to keep it simple and bet for value.I think a lot of people would disagree and would always c-bet there.  

Check fold really is not an option unless he NEVER stabs with either weaker marginal trying to protect or air, nor is bet/folding without reads.

I've been running extremely bad in reraised pots recently, so I just started to look at these hands from another perspective:Why is it bad to flat a 3bet in position with Q2o ?Well, it never is if your opponent sticks his stack in with less than top pair.  You have to call 140 here to win 1200, so you're getting great odds to hit your Queen on the flop and get paid off.And fuseo, if you expect to get raised on this board when you lead, then it's even more profitable for me to flat your 3bets with complete trash because your getting-it-in range will contain far more air-type hands that I beat than better queens.  Depending on how light you come over the top of a raise on this board, I could even profitably flat with J7o against your 3bet and raise to get it in on this board.Sure, you can expecting to get bluff-raised a decent amount on a board like this if you're playing $50+ against a good opponent - someone who isn't flatting 3bets with complete junk, so he won't have so many Queens in his range here.However, this is a $11 and flatting a 3bet with some Queen-rag and then going broken after hitting top pair is certainly what I'll expect from a low-stakes opponent.I'm not saying that I'd instantly fold JJ on this board - but I'd go for a check/call on this flop.  This'd keep my opponent's weaker hands in the pot rather than pushing them out with a huge lead, and it'd also keep the pot smaller in case he does have a Queen.

As played, this is an easy check/fold for me on the turn - I'm very surprised to see him turn weak showdown value into a bluff.

Jackoneil,  I agree that I expect to get it in on a dry board like that (if I c-bet, which is not what I would do anyway), but it dosnt make flatting Q2 profitable becuase getting a board like that is improbable. I don't belive there are implied odds.I'd check the flop agasint good players and fish as I think both range include just as many Qs. I'd be flatting strong Qs at 70BB. 

Gawd, i must have some serious leaks as I am cbetting this flop with JJ as a standard. Also, I would probably be bet/folding......So let me get this straight - on this dry Q high flop we should be checking behind after we 3bet to keep his range wide and encourage bluffs? We don't want to cbet as players often play straight forward and will only call us with TP, unless we think that betting this flop will induce a float or possibly a spazz, then we should bet for these reasons.If these were the reasons to bet, then shouldn't we bet smaller to induce a float or spazz - like 160ish?Also, don't we need a very specific read to make this play (betting with the intention of calling a push/ or check/calling the turn).@Artemis - bet/folding this is not an option readless? Is him calling the flop and betting the turn when we check stronger readless?Thanks for your time.

MrRunsGood, it's not that you shouldn't c-bet that flop, it's that you should not bet/fold that flop. By bet folding you are betting purely for fold equity with a great hand Jacks.

Yeah reads help if you want to c-bet. That's why I think a check is standard.
If I had the read that the player was call station or a maniac I'd bet the flop for value and not fold.

A smaller bet may keep weaker hands in and induce floats. But a small bet can induce bluffs just as much, so if you are raised you have to call.

Thanks for the reply - reading this thread was kind of an "ahah" moment for me but I still have some questions that I hope you can clear up.These are my thoughts on the hand, hope you can correct me where I'm wrong. for your first statment -  "it's not that you shouldn't c-bet that flop, it's that you should not bet/fold that flop. By bet folding you are betting purely for fold equity with a great hand Jacks."So, considering that this is a pretty dry flop with an over, checking behind here becomes the optimal play with out reads of how an opponent plays in 3bet pots/their 3bet calling range. We assume our opponent has a "standard" 3bet calling rnage which can include a lot of Q's such as QJ, QTs (and some QTo), KQo/s. and posssibly some Q9s or something. Considering that most players play straight forward in 3 bet pots, we can expect a lot of folds from all hands that miss (KJo, KTs, sc's, some pp's and Ax hands) and really the majority of hands that call us here we would have to assume would be wwighted  to Qx hands (with a few pp's and Ax hands thrown in as well). Finally - readless we are left without a plan if our opponent decides to rr us here as we are readless.However, checking behind keeps there range wide and might intice bluffs from weaker hands as well as pot controls for the times our opponent has Qx.So, my questions are:1) when we check the flop, how many streets are we calling if villain decides to attack our apparent show of weakness - a) 2 streets? b) 3 streets? c) willing to get it in? if the board runs out low/uncoordinated cards. (pretty much are we calling it down for stacks if we are only vs 1 over readless). Just wondering - as it was stated most players play straight forward in 3bet pots - but I also find a lot will attack weakness. 2) By checking the flop we are giving free cards for villain to hit a better tp on the turn or river? Are we considering bettting the turn (if villain checks behind and turn doesn't bring an A or K)? If we bet and villain calls are we betting non A/K rivers? or are we check/calling? 3) if we check the flop and villain check's behind are we c/f to a bet on a A/K turn? Call and re-evaluate the river?"A smaller bet may keep weaker hands in and induce floats. But a small bet can induce bluffs just as much, so if you are raised you have to call." Artemis said " If you bet, you bet to induce a float like now and therefore NEVER fold turn, which is why I think never fold turn. When you 3bet and check flop you almost always have showdown value so checking flop does turn your hand faceup whereas if you bet you might get floats from overs and/or back door draws, etc, so betting with the intention of never folding is fine.....nor is bet/folding without reads"- so this is kind of my point - if we have the read - and cbet the flop with the intention of never folding, should we bet smaller to encourage floats as well as induce shoves? If we plan on bet/calling then wouldn't a lshove over a larger cbet be more indicative of a better hand (Qx) Sorry if I'm missing something.

You pretty much summed up my thinking. My main point from the start is that you have to have a plan if you get raised on the flop, which I think would happen very often.You even need a plan (as shown by Qttacks hand) for if you are floated and raised on the turn.1) I don't know how the hand will play out. My intentions are to check for pot control and keep the pot as small as possible with middle pair. I don't want to get my stack in.2) I'm not worried about overcards hitting, there are only 2 and there are many more cards that Jacks get value from. And card under Jack I'm definitely leading for value. An A or K can be a scared card to villain so I think it will slow him down, I rarely think he would bluff it as it smacks our range. I wouldnt lead an A or K either, still dont want to turn my jacks into a bluff.3) I think against most villains I'd fold a A or K lead on the turn.Checking is not sexy, but it is what I would do.A smaller c-bet could be a viable option. It would weaken his reraising range by including more bluffs and weaken his floating range. The thing is if you are reraised on a flop like that, and you call, you have to be prepared to face barrels on future streets.I guess the point overall is that this is the perfect flop for villain to run a bluff on. He knows it is very unlikely you've hit this board and he knows that you think it is more likely that he has hit it. He also knows that its hard for you to call a large raise as its unlikely you have a Q or AA or KK.In this example the villain knew it was unlikely Qattck hit this board and was going to try and take the pot away on the turn. Qattack knew that there was a good chance he was bluffing , but he was still in a really tricky spot with a large pot and he could easily be facing a river bet as well.Again its just me view. I could defiantly be wrong. But I do think it is correct to be looking at the chances of being bluff raised in a 3-bet pot depending on board texture before you c-bet. 

After thinking a bit more about this - I'm not even so opposed to bet/folding here anymore, especially without reads.The big problem with check/calling is that we need to check/fold the turn (if we check/call on the turn, then we're praying that he'll shutdown at the river).  By checking, we just encourage him too much to bet here - and we don't have a hand that we can call 3 streets with.By leading, we can still get some value from smaller PP's, Ace-high and random floats - and when we get raised, we can cheaply get away from the hand without having a costly turn-decision.We really need to consider carefully whether we really have any reason to believe that our opponent is blowing off his entire stack on a complete bluff with air here.  Sure, it's likely that he'll bluff us here - but will he really risk his entire tournament on it ?If we lead / fold here, we only invested very little chips and can find a better spot later - whereas if we go broke here and we're wrong, it's a very expensive mistake.  It could even be a major leak if our opponent is just playing fit-or-fold in reraised pots (and fit-or-fold could mean Q2o here).

Thanks for the reply"The big problem with check/calling is that we need to check/fold the turn (if we check/call on the turn, then we're praying that he'll shutdown at the river).  By checking, we just encourage him too much to bet here - and we don't have a hand that we can call 3 streets with."this was my big problem with the thread - and tbh, i think I am double barrelling this hand granted no A or K come on the turn. I think it folds out a lot of flop floats and figure my hand to really be only worth 2 streets - so I might as well keep initative and bet?i have been in similar spots, but gotten c/r on the flop - so this thread really made me question my decisions.

I dont mind bet-folding here but i think a big problem is if we later in the match find ourselves in a similar situation. Now villain knows that we give up easily in 3bet pots and we will have a hard time guessing his range come second time around. He will probably be inclined to bluff a whole lot more if he thinks that we play fit/fold and are unwilling to call one down or  and re evaluate turn.