Hi everyone, the following is a comparrison between HU Cash and HUSNGs I did for myself some months ago. Maybe you'll find it interesting if you've considered both formats.___________________________________________________HU cash players love to argue that their preferred format is the highest testament of poker wits. It's especially comical when the claim is made by bumhunters that sit out against anyone capable of folding bottom pair (a luxury HUSNG players don't have). It's natural and always pleasant to pad our egos, but is this claim justified? I don't think so and this is further highlighted by the countless cash game specialists who consistently failed to become big winners in HUSNGs. The typical argument is that deeper stacks = higher complexity and thus a greater effect of skill. While this is true in a pure mathematical sense, practical play differs. The deeper one plays, the less a fold can be exploited since the importance of winning the blinds is much lower. There's less of a need for nitty value peddling regs to adapt to their opponents because their strategy is harder to beat than it would be in HUSNGs. In HUSNGs, the blinds change constantly and decisions that were correct at one blind level become awful at another. Thus, one has to be more versatile and perceptive. Of course, deeper stacks offer more implied odds and playing squeaky tight isn't optimal. However, my experience suggests that the average HU cash reg is much tighter pre and postflop at 100BB than the average HUSNG reg at 75BB. This means fewer flops to play and as a result, fewer opportunities to impart a skill edge. Moreover, ranges are better defined and consequently, handreading is easier. This is especially true since slowplaying is more frequently a mistake deeper due to the inability to get stacks in without being aggressive on every street. Thus, it may be the case that 75BB play offers a higher skill edge than 100BB play in the context of practical play. Furthermore, it suggests that cash game regs are simply not fighting for pots as hard. This is natural since the driving force to win blinds is less significant. When players aren't fighting for pots as hard, reads and hero calls become less critical due to lower bluffing frequencies. The way many HU cash game regs win is merely by waiting for their opponents to overplay hands. The interesting consequence of this is that HUSNG players have to be more attentive to everything their opponents do. They must use the right reads when it matters most because inevitably, many spots will come up where they or their opponents are making big moves (especially shallower like ~30BB). While it's important to wait for better spots, there's also less time to do this in HUSNGs and that's why there's more action. Similarly, reads developed earlier can be even more profitable at shallower stacks than deep because the relative magnitude of the mistake is higher. For instance, if someone cbets 100% and folds to a checkraise 65%, this is a much larger leak at 30BBs than 300BBs. Also, if facing a weak passive player afraid of risking elimination even in profitable spots, double barreling is more profitable at shallow stacks because each pot is a larger proportion of the buy-in. Likewise, reversing some tendencies your opponents expect from your deeper play may be surprisingly profitable when shallower. The game constantly changes as a function of stack depth and a player skilled at one stack depth but not another is leaking a great deal of money. With all the poker material out there, many have become competent at 100BB play while getting lost in the myriad of changing variables at lower stack depths. HUSNGs prey on this failure to adapt. Interestingly enough, the deeper stacks argument falls flat for several other reasons. First of all, there are deep stacked HUSNGs which test the full gamut of a player's skill and start much deeper than HU cash. More importantly, the standard raise for many HUSNG regulars even 75BB deep is a minraise. This means the pot starts out being only 4BB and that the BB is forced to play more postflop to avoid getting run-over. On the cash spectrum, a minraise is typically not correct and this isn't simply because it fails to build the pot or apply pressure in position. The main reason for opening 3X and taking the pot down preflop is that rake is a serious problem. Hence, HU cash pots usually start at 6BB. Already, the effective stack to pot ratio is larger for HUSNGs, making them effectively deeper (75/4 = 18.75, 100/6 = 16.67). Since HUSNGs aren't raked on the basis of hands seeing flops, decisions like limping or minraising are made in a vacuum based purely on merit. Another common feature of HU cash games, is a 3/4 pot CBET (or even larger). Once again, this makes the SPR smaller and the game plays as if shallower. In the end, it doesn't matter which is more complex and it's also a question of opinion. What matters is hourly and preference. As Mersenneary and many other successful high stakes players will attest, there's a decent edge even at 25BB or less if you're willing to learn the intricacies of the format. There are nuances that players used to deeper play simply don't appreciate. And if one can get in two dozen superturbos in an hour at a lower ROI but with the overall result of a higher hourly, then that's the smart thing to do. No one cares if you're playing the divinely deemed most complex form of poker and your wallet prefers you play what's most profitable instead. In my case, there's such a huge edge in regular speed HUSNGs that I would be wasting money by switching to deep stacked HUSNGs. I don't need that much time and patience to destroy players making big mistakes at every stack depth and the ROI is unlikely to double in deep stacked HUSNGs. There's a point of diminishing returns from increasing stack depth and for me, this probably occurs in deep stacked HUSNGs. For other players, this occurs in regular speeds and they play turbos instead etc. One needs more than twice as high of an ROI to play a format that takes twice as long (due to rakeback benefits). In many ways, I see cash games as having reached and far exceeded the point of diminishing returns vs most opponents. What's exploitable at 100BB+ can be exploited at 75BB and it's still deep enough to have play on all three streets. Even if theoretically the potential edge is higher, the time needed to realize it lowers hourly. I have immense confidence in the HUSNG format because it's exciting and offers a vast array of options. Tournament formats with a clear winner provide a sense of accomplishment and importance. Wins are more enjoyable for me and I think the same is true for recreational players. It's probably why there tends to be more action in HUSNGs than similar HU cash levels. Recreational players may also find it more satisfying to brag about beating top player X in a concrete way rather than saying they won a certain number of BB. And of course, it's easier to schedule. One can always hit-n-run cash games but it's not the same as knowing you'll either win or lose X amount a certain game and that such a result will take a maximum of Y minutes. If playing a new opponent, it typically has to be for at least as long as the duration of an HUSNG because reads are developed even slower due to fewer pots being played postfop. Plus, a good percentage of the time, those reads are wasted because as soon as a recreational player wins a significant pot, they stop playing. In HUSNGs, it's not so easy. This leads to another benefit for the games. Given one can't decline action, regs at a certain level need to be more competent or they'll get sat by better regs. As such, the pool of weaker players will be the domain of fewer regs than is true for HU cash games where there are frequently a dozen regs sitting at a table and getting no action. This keeps games very juicy for longer. The options from 25BB to 150BB are vast and suit all manner of styles, temperaments and schedules. There will always be a lucrative HUSNG structure. Moreover, I truly believe that deep stacked HUSNGs are one the most testing poker formats. They traverse every stack depth and require high versatility so even if the edges are eventually reduced in other poker formats, the deep stacked HUSNGs will always offer a sizable edge.
great article
very well put sir. i agree with this entirely especially when dealing with stakes from .25-.50NL to 3-6 NL, only exception may be higher stakes cash where players begin to be very good and have more room to show there creativity with deeper stakes. You have a point though that 75bb effectively plays just as deep if not deeper than 100bb cash. Major difference is the amount of time played at 75deep is relatively short in husngs and therefore less history and metagame considerations. personally i suck at cash i need structure in my life. i play cash like a tourney i could chip up all night but i always seem to wait till i bust to get a up, its a different type of disapline and skill. to each there own, but i do have most respect for high stakes cash game players, they seem to be the highest level thinkers.
MastAAce08
Excellent article.I was thinking the other day that a HUSNG is like a texas cage match in wrestling. Locked in, can´t leave the ring until there is a winner.222
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Hey bud :)I think this article's right up my alley so I'll quote parts of it to give you my thoughts on the matter. "The typical argument is that deeper stacks = higher complexity and thus a greater effect of skill. While this is true in a pure mathematical sense, practical play differs. The deeper one plays, the less a fold can be exploited since the importance of winning the blinds is much lower. There's less of a need for nitty value peddling regs to adapt to their opponents because their strategy is harder to beat than it would be in HUSNGs. In HUSNGs, the blinds change constantly and decisions that were correct at one blind level become awful at another. Thus, one has to be more versatile and perceptive."There's a few things I'm not crazy about in this statement. You say at deeper stacks a fold can't be exploited as much, but I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. You risk the same amount preflop on a raise to win a preflop blind, so the preflop calculation is identical at any depth. The idea that stealing the blinds is more important since our stack is shallow and we need to win the tournament seems flawed to me. In any heads up structure our only concern is chip EV, and the chip EV of a blind steal doesn't change with stack depths. From all that you should probably realize that I'm going to disagree with everything that implies that a cash game reg is a nit who can't be beaten by folding too much, because nits in cash games are awful and can be beaten easily :P I do agree with the difficulty of playing various blind depths in husngs however, a lot of people from cash are extremely weak in that area and it's a very tough skill set to master. "However, my experience suggests that the average HU cash reg is much tighter pre and postflop at 100BB than the average HUSNG reg at 75BB. This means fewer flops to play and as a result, fewer opportunities to impart a skill edge."The only important thing I want to mention here is that I think a HUGE reason for this is preflop open sizing. Cash regs tend to open 3x and sng regs tend to minraise. Obviously preflop will be far looser in any minraising game, including cash format. "For instance, if someone cbets 100% and folds to a checkraise 65%, this is a much larger leak at 30BBs than 300BBs."This is sort of a strange example to give, since this isn't necessarily a leak at any stack depth. The only way we know if this is a leak is to know our opponent's check/raise and check/call flop frequencies. What you're sort of getting at though is that people aren't going to fold as often at 30bb and thus it's correct to stack off way lighter, and 65% is a very large figure against most 30bb opponents. Again, I believe these calculations will turn out identically at any stack depth when doing an immediate odds calculation, but when considering implied odds it will often be a mistake to fold more often at 300bb, which is a somewhat counterintuitive result. "In many ways, I see cash games as having reached and far exceeded the point of diminishing returns vs most opponents. What's exploitable at 100BB+ can be exploited at 75BB and it's still deep enough to have play on all three streets. Even if theoretically the potential edge is higher, the time needed to realize it lowers hourly."This part I strongly disagree with, but I think it's because you're talking mostly about deep stack husngs and I'm thinking of deep stack cash games. As stacks get deeper, a good players edge per hand increases, but hands don't take any longer than usual. Unless you're working under a tournament structure where it takes longer and longer to finish a match as stacks increase, then hourly rate can only go up as your bb/100 winrate increases. I think the whole article was very good but you were working under a framework where all deep stacked husng players are nits, and that tight is the correct way to play when deep. I'd encourage you and everyone else reading this thread to reconsider that =)
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"There's a few things I'm not crazy about in this statement. You say at deeper stacks a fold can't be exploited as much, but I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. You risk the same amount preflop on a raise to win a preflop blind, so the preflop calculation is identical at any depth. The idea that stealing the blinds is more important since our stack is shallow and we need to win the tournament seems flawed to me. In any heads up structure our only concern is chip EV, and the chip EV of a blind steal doesn't change with stack depths."The value of a BB relative to the buy-in changes dramatically as an HUSNG progresses. It's not a cash-game where the value of a BB is static. The only way to profit in an HUSNG is by winning everything. If someone folds 10 buttons in a row at 10/20 with 75BB, they lose 1/15th of their buy-in. If they do the same at 50/100 with 15bb, they've lost 2/3 of their buy-in. "The only important thing I want to mention here is that I think a HUGE reason for this is preflop open sizing. Cash regs tend to open 3x and sng regs tend to minraise. Obviously preflop will be far looser in any minraising game, including cash format. "Yes, limping and minraising aren't usually great strategies at 100BB due to rake and the depth of stacks."This is sort of a strange example to give, since this isn't necessarily a leak at any stack depth. The only way we know if this is a leak is to know our opponent's check/raise and check/call flop frequencies. What you're sort of getting at though is that people aren't going to fold as often at 30bb and thus it's correct to stack off way lighter, and 65% is a very large figure against most 30bb opponents. Again, I believe these calculations will turn out identically at any stack depth when doing an immediate odds calculation, but when considering implied odds it will often be a mistake to fold more often at 300bb, which is a somewhat counterintuitive result. "I wrote it as a generality so I'm referring to a situation where the player doing the check-raising doesn't just have monsters and folding is incorrect if his opponent could see his cards. As for deep-stacked cash games, it's a good point but a different idea than I was emphasizing. "This part I strongly disagree with, but I think it's because you're talking mostly about deep stack husngs and I'm thinking of deep stack cash games. As stacks get deeper, a good players edge per hand increases, but hands don't take any longer than usual. Unless you're working under a tournament structure where it takes longer and longer to finish a match as stacks increase, then hourly rate can only go up as your bb/100 winrate increases. "Assuming two players are equally skilled at every stack depth, the difference between them will be most visible at deeper stacks. However, that doesn't mean that deeper stacks always offer a larger edge. As skates showed when he played cash games, his edge was magnified at medium-short stacks. His opponents had gaps in their understanding and play at the stack depths where skates excelled even if there is mathematically higher complexity at deeper stacks.Moreover, there's a point where even if your edge increases, it doesn't justify the increased duration of the format and hourly goes down. For instance, someone's edge at 100BB vs 75BB is larger but not as much of a difference as the edge at 50BB vs 25BB. It's all about chip utility and you can still use your entire arsenal at 75BB as at 100BB. In cash games, you're right that it doesn't matter and your potential edge deeper is just higher without any downside but in an HUSNG, it will take far longer to finish it too."I think the whole article was very good but you were working under a framework where all deep stacked husng players are nits, and that tight is the correct way to play when deep. "As for nits, I agree that it's not the optimal style and I'm not implying that their strategy isn't exploitable. It's beatable but I think my edge would be greater if I could see more flops with them in marginal situations instead of stealing their blinds more often. In an HUSNG, you're forced to play more marginal spots like calling a minraise with K5o at 20BB vs most opponents.
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