Hi and welcome :-)You actually started with a very interesting question: jamming vs. calling around 15bb - I'm very interested in learning more about that as well.In the past, I used to mostly flat, but then I watched Chadders' video pack, read Mersenneary's ebook and also had a private coaching session with Hokie earlier this year, where I learned that jamming often has a better expectation than flatting.  But unfortunately, my results weren't that great since I tried to implement this in my game, so there's a decenct chance that I misunderstood something.So that's really great question to start these two weeks :-)

 i play as felson9 on stars and have played hypers for approx 5 months now starting at 3.50 and grinded (heated) my up to 60's. i was playing with the idea of focusing on turbos but for personal reasons and reasons listed below i will prolly focus on hypers during the this program.- a lot more fish/marginal/mentally disabled players in hyper turbos- turbo action appears pretty bad at 100 and above- i assume the majority of people partcipating is going to focus on hyper turbos so i can learn more and challenge my game. welcome to the forum! your reasons for focusing on hypers looks good to me. hypers are definitely where most of the money is at in husng's these days. one thing that turbo players often seem to forget is that they do play hands <25 deep and, aside from a slight difference in population tendancies of hyper/turbo players, the thought process is going to be the same. obv it's less important to a turbo player since it's only 20%ish of his total hands played, but still important nonetheless! surprises me how many turbo players just flatly say "i dont play hypers, so i dont need to learn 3bet shoving"....::hokie head explode!::i also think it's good to have a clear picture of what you are working towards long term. you seem to have a good handle of that.looking forward to working with you.

a aspect i always have been awful at is adjusting my opening range against diffrent frequencies , so here is the question  which i do realise is pretty hard to answer since postflop frequencies will have a big impact on how we choose to play pre. but i feel that reading some theory on what why will help me become able to figure out this by my self in the future. Openrange 25-20 bb vsdefend/3b60/475/4100/030/2040/2060/20as for postlfop lets assume they play a controlled form of aggro.i would like to know generally what kind of hands are we opening and also some thoughts on why.hmm, i definitely think a lot of those frequencies you mentioned are a bit extreme...you don't see someone flatting 100% and 3betting 0% virtually ever, same for 60/4 and 75/4. but whatever, theory is fun, so i'll answer anyways...let's start with readless play...the population tendancy of an unknown player's oop frequencies is probably something like a total bb vpip of about 55%. 3betting approx ~15% and flatting ~40%ish...something like that. (~ = approximate). something like that. basically, the avg unkown imo is quite passive oop, doesnt 3bet bluff much, and doesn't 3bet shove nearly as many weak AX hands as a thinking player would. folding our sb is -0.5bb expecation, so our goal is simply to try to choose a play with each hand that has a better expectation than folding. since the avg unknown is passive, we have a low risk of getting 3bet. this means that we can comfortably raise a very wide range (~85-90%, slightly decreasing the closer we get to 20bb effective). while a lot of our range is weak, we will still be taking advantage of villain folding ~45% of his hands oop, and will also have plenty of +ev cbet/barreling opportunities postflop as well (the avg player is also quite passive postflop). an opponent who is folding >50% of hands oop:if our opponent is folding >50% of hands oop, it is theoretically optimal to raise 100% of our buttons. i prefer to raise something like 95% still - mainly bc I think showing your opponent a fold occasionally keeps them happy...even tho raising the bottom 5% of hands is theoretically +ev, i think it's extremely marginal at best (and if they continue a lot postflop, these hands can even be overall -ev to play from the sb still). if our opponent is playing 45% of hands or less oop, i'm definitely raising 100% though.an opponent who is very passive oop, flatting 65% and 3betting 20%:this opponent isn't 3betting us often enough for us to be adjust too much from our standard play, but he is flatting a lot wider than the avg unknown - so we need to make some slight adjustments probably.i would definitely continue to raise very wide vs this opponent, ~90%, as their 65% flatting range means that they have a bunch of weak hands in their oop range, will miss a ton of flops, so our cbet/barrels should work very well typically vs this opponent.after establishing reads, if we happen to find that this opponent is just not willing to fold much postflop (make sure you are being realistic about it though, so many players are too quick to call a player a 'station' imo) - then we can tighten our oppening range to ~75-80% (or even lower depending how stationy/wreckless he is post), check back more flops than we normally would with total air (maybe try delay cbetting some), and barrel more for value. tightening our pfr some means we have a stronger overall pfr that will connect to boards better overall - important vs someone who is not folding to our postflop aggression.an opponent who is 3betting us a lot, flatting 30% and calling 30%:since we have to raise/fold more often, i would tighten your sb vpip to ~80%. i refer to sb vpip instead of pfr bc:we should limp some vs someone that is 3betting us ~30%+. mid-connected hands that we would otherwise have to raise/fold to 3bet shoves like T9o, J7s, 87o type stuff are great hands to limp - and if our limp is raised they can typically limp/call well enough for calling to be > folding. so if we are limping ~20% of hands or so, that leaves us with a polarized pfr of hands that can continue vs a 3bet well and hands that raise/fold easily (and don't play great in limped pots). so our pfr will be something like ~60%, raise/calling the top 20% of hands or so.as villain's 3bet frequency increases more and more, your adjustment should be to:a) raise/call an increasingly wider rangeb) gradually tighten your pfr % (but not too much, would def prefer you just raise pretty wide still, and just raise/call a lot more...take some hands out of limping range like JTs/QTo etc and start raise/calling it vs a real wide 3bet freq...that way you have plenty of hands in your pfr range that can continue vs the wide 3bet freq - this allows you to still raise a wide, relatively balanced range preflop.i could expand on this a lot more, so if you guys have any more questions about this please ask.  

in mers's book he writes something along the lines of against a wide opener 15 bb we should not be flatting a lot.this question basicly comes down to expectation of calling vs jamming. but my DB is not that big and hm2 is so awful for doing anything else then keeping track of how many games i have played( imo)i'm mainly talking about hands like J8s , K7s, T8o, hands that play all right postflop but can be jammed.it depends how wide he is opening. for example, vs a 55% opener (assuming he raise/calls a standard range), i would jam J8s and K7s and flat T8o. vs a 75% opener though, we should basically be jamming atc bc we have so much fold equity. it's a fine line, and estimating calling expectation is difficult bc of sample sizes (and sample bias) - so you'll just have to trust my intuition on flatting expectation (as well as read a lot of mers' old posts and trust his too!).work with this program some to get a feel for 3bet jamming hands expectation vs different pfr freq's and raise/calling ranges:http://www.husng.com/content/free-software-3-bet-shoving-equity-calculator

against a player who will c/r most of his draws and toppairs we can obv barrel a whole lot until he readjusts but what cards are in reality good for double barreling readless? overcards and cards that give us equity, i like barreling cards that give us more equity because th equity we pick up combined with whatever FE we hopefully have should make i +ev?ya, post some examples...i think that would be best. i agree with you completely, but just keep in mind the more villain folds to our barrels the less equity/value we need to be barreling with. so just be careful with any "blanket statements" about anything in poker...it's really all about frequencies.your general thought process here is really good though. basically if one range is VERY strong, then the opposite range is VERY weak - in this case, i wouldn't be TOO picky about needing great equity to continue. at same time, i wouldn't be barreling off with 0 equity either.

checking behind T98 with K6s( no bdf). so we check behind because we cannot see him folding a ton given his oop calling range but what if we bet and he calls, then i feel like his range is so weighted towards weak hands that we can get him to fold by barreling?ya, if you cbet your probably need to barrel a decent amount, but just keep in mind that his c/c range is going to have A TON of equity overall, so while there are some runouts that are good for us - there are a lot that hit his c/c range hard too. that said, if you are playing an opponent who calls oop wide enough to justify a cbet here, this is one of the better hands to cbet + barrel in terms of backdoor equity (and not having enough sd value to shut down vs c/c range).checking behind Ax is that only something we should be doing against villians who c/r a fair ammount? because i feel that it is so easy to exploit by villian by barreling. obv we can then check behind strong hands too but it seems like a whole lot of effort to combat his c/rif you are checking back your AX to protect against a wide c/r (equity-heavy) range, you should also be checking back some good K highs, 2nd pair + no kicker, 3rd pairs, marginal draws. so remember, even though you might happen to have AX that particular hand, it's not your entire range - your checkback range contains a lot of different types of hands that improve on diff turn cards, so you should have enough opportunities to call off or delay cbet for checking back those hands to show better expectation than cbetting and continue vs a c/r. remember, if we check back A2 on KT5hh vs this villain-type, the turn is a 9, and we know villains lead the turn pretty wide - yes, we are getting bluffed sometimes, but even if he is leading most of his range, if he turned that range face up we likely still couldn't call profitably bc he just has sooo many hands that connect to this board! don't be pessimistic and just think about the times he leads his J6 here, think about his full range and it should be pretty clear that we can't continue well at all (plus his air mostly has some equity still too. 

and yea i do realise some of my questions are somewhat meeh ( at least i feel so) so i will try to fill this out with some cool hands too. and i will try to use this thread as a daily blog to see if its something i can be bothered doing i think you can probably tell from my answers so far, your questions are not 'meh' at all. talking about a general gameplan/strategy is often a lot more efficient than analyzing individual hands anyways.have you been happy with my answers so far? plz ask me to expand in any spots i didn't explain clearly/completely.

88: raise/call looks good to me. definitely important to try to get stacks in on flop vs his 6X before an overcard comes on turn and kills your actions like JJ6 7, JJ6 Q etc.JTo: i think the avg player minraises button pretty damn nitty at 13bb stx. JTs i would jam, JTo i'd flat. it's close though i guess. i'd estimate minraising range to be ~40% maybe here (along with a few openshoves and plenty of limps on average) thoughts?i like chk/jam a lot. like you said, draws are priced in. looks good, good analysis.A8o: vs a reg this would be the bottom of my offsuit 4b jamming range. do you see regs 3bet bluffing 40-100 and folding to jams much at 420 eff? my intuition is that this isn't 3bet/folding hands much...i'd expect more of that from 40-90 size. also, i think when you get <22/23bb eff a lot of regs non-allin 3bet bluffing frequency reduces quite a bit.23+, i definitely think the pop tend for regs is to non-allin 3b bluff more, so i would be comfortably 4bet jamming my A8o+ A2s+ with card removal - remember that A2s and A8o usually will have the same equity vs typical regs 4bet calling range here. while card removal factor is important (and is the main reason we would jam a hand like A8o are A3s here), the difference between A8o and A2o (aside from equity when called) is that when we add the A2o-A7o combinations to our range we are adding 12 combos for each of those hands we add - so like another 5% of total hands we are 4bet shoving, this leads to our overall 4bet shoving range becoming pretty weak. that said, if we have enough fold equity, these can be jams too!feel like i might not be explaining this clearly enough, feel free to ask more ?sK9: i think it's really close. the pop tend for cbetting t60 on this board texture is for it to be a pretty strong range, so i def expect to get barreled on turn quite a bit, so i'm mostly making my flop decisions assuming turn isn't going chk/chk very often. T out is good, K out is kind of dirty, 9 out is very  meh. having the Kh backdoor fd is pretty important though, so i'd c/c bc of that - probably c/f K9o with no heart though. vs a t40 cb this would be a no-brainer c/c though.K6: ya looks good to me, that turn really hits him hard you would think (and if he has total air/equity i think we can assume river gets barreled unimproved a lot too)K7: meh, i just don't expect many hands that call your turn lead to fold the river - and i expect to see QX a bunch. maybe you get a few 9X/8X combos to fold, but i expect some of them to maybe fold the turn too. i'd probably just lead the turn a little bigger like t55 to make sure we get folds from 8X and some weak 9X maybe, and A high type stuff. we have some good equity too, so since our size should get his range to be pretty face up on river, i think unimproved we can just c/f (and expect river to go chk/chk tons, since i don't think many players are checking back this flop w JX).there are plenty of boards that are going to be good for leading 2 streets (post some more examples of this type spot if you want), but without a really unique dynamic i don't think this is a good one for it. if i'm going to bluff this river, and i think i can actually get QX to fold to a big bet, i'd overbet like 150% the pot or so - puts his QX in a really hard spot since i think this is so rarely a bluff for most players.

how does our bb defending range look like at 15 bb vs 50 %if its higher i want to 3b jam a lot of suited stuff if its lower i want to just flat a very tight range like T7s, 87s, Q7s, K7s J7s. 97o, K8o, Q8o, J8oi think my answers have probably got you thinking more about this already. let me know your thoughts now and i'll expand more.fwiw, i'd be flatting the off suit hands you listed and jamming the suited ones. a 50% pfr (assuming it doesnt contain many openjams and its actually all minraises), as you can see using the 3b program, is a frequency we should be mostly jamming against though and not really folding much of anything oop. i think the avg player that minraises that wide 15bb deep is the type to minraise/call quite wide (probably not as wide as 'loose 2', but imo wider than 'loose 1') so i would estimate your 3bet expectation somewhere in between the results of those 2 player types.it's kind of hard to estimate specifically though and depends on pop tendancies a lot.are you following my general thought process in making this decision though? 

going to work on some other threads now, but will get back to you later today if you have some followup questions.

  gradually tighten your pfr % (but not too much, would def prefer you just raise pretty wide still, and just raise/call a lot more...take some hands out of limping range like JTs/QTo etc and start raise/calling it vs a real wide 3bet freq...that way you have plenty of hands in your pfr range that can continue vs the wide 3bet freq - this allows you to still raise a wide, relatively balanced range preflop. - If you would raise/call JTs+ would you raise-call Ax aswell?   it depends how wide he is opening. for example, vs a 55% opener (assuming he raise/calls a standard range), i would jam J8s and K7s and flat T8o. vs a 75% opener though, we should basically be jamming atc bc we have so much fold equity. - Isnt it better to call with J8s/K7s since it realizes its eq easy and hit many flops and jam 95s/86s instead and that the average population doesnt SBR that wide?  [SB, 88 on JJ6] Good point in getting it in vs 6x before scarecards show up. I always flatted to let him "continue with his bluffs", but I dont know how often villain actually bluffs there, just me being paranoid about being bluffed. And also wanna be able to get away from the hand if he has Jx and leveld us, but dont think we can get away from the hand.. [BB, JT on AT9ddd] Do you think villain CB this often enough for us not to DB it? [BB, K9 on QJ8ss] Wow thought that the  was a fold for sure, since there are so many uglly turns for us, and they dont cb that big with air, so dont think we have great EQ vs QT,Q9, JT, J8 etc. [BB, K7 on T98] Is a lead here good? Seems better to take controll of the hand then just CC/cf? Can we cf here since we might not get any more value if we hit our draw?  if i'm going to bluff this river, and i think i can actually get QX to fold to a big bet, i'd overbet like 150% the pot or so - puts his QX in a really hard spot since i think this is so rarely a bluff for most players.- Such a good alt play. Never thought of this.  

Q7s: i like a donkbet here more than a c/r. if you think his cbet frequency is ~70%, i def think its fair to make the assumption that this the type of board that a lot of players cbet with a tighter range. after all, 70% cbet freq is just an average of all situations - some tighter, some wider. we have good equity + backdoor equity, villains flatting range will likely be pretty weak, and we will have good barreling opportunities on turns/rivers a lot of times - and most importantly, a stack depth where we can barrel off a lot. if villain were actually cbetting this board 75/80% of the time, i think c/r would be best bc of the value we gain from his cbet. my point is basically that a 60% pfr and a 50-60% cbet freq isn't a freq combo we are really printing money agianst (i think its +ev tho!)...i just think donkbetting is better!Q8: i think it can be ok, as long as you don't have a bluffy image or he is capable of hero'ign a lot (you aren't repping much). i think it can be good given your reads though.97:i went for the c/r because i hate getting barreled off and we have really good equity. I also add more "value" hands to my c/r range in this spot where i in theory could be c/r a wide range of draws which is beneficial against players i think i might end playing a decent amount.the bolded is a very bad reason to be c/r. if someone is truly barreling you so much, then just call off lighter! your thought process is basically to play your hand suboptimally to avoid a situation you are less comfortable in (or get more tilted in) - that's not good enough obv.i think this is a board most people don't cbet very wide. your hand is dominated by a ton of blockers in the range villain will continue vs a c/r with (and i expect most players to continue a pretty high % on this board). i like c/c.Q9: post the wrong hand i guess? :)

your thought process is basically to play your hand suboptimally to avoid a situation you are less comfortable in (or get more tilted in) - that's not good enough obv.This is one of my big leaks. Intresting points in the 97 hand, thought it was a DB/3B for sure. 

23+bb stxHokie says: "i definitely think the pop tend for regs is to non-allin 3b bluff more, so i would be comfortably 4bet jamming my A8o+ A2s+ with card removal - remember that A2s and A8o usually will have the same equity vs typical regs 4bet calling range here. while card removal factor is important (and is the main reason we would jam a hand like A8o are A3s here), the differencebetween A8o and A2o (aside from equity when called) is that when we add the A2o-A7o combinations to our range we are adding 12 combos for each of those hands we add - so like another 5% of total hands we are 4bet shoving, this leads to our overall 4bet shoving range becoming pretty weak. that said, if we have enough fold equity, these can be jams too!feel like i might not be explaining this clearly enough, feel free to ask more ?s"Happy: "A2o-A7o are not profitable 4b because when called we lack equity to make up for being behind against most regs?."ya, not enough equity vs the pop tend for regs 3b range imo. the other problem is that just in terms of our overall 4betting ranges equity, we are adding so many combos of 4bet bluffs to our range that our ranges equity decreases a bunch as well.if you find their 3bet range to be increasingly wider, than you can adjust your 4bet shoving range by jamming more of these type hands.  

post 5.think it was in oneof chadders videos he said you convined him 3bnai/call KQ/KJs at 22-25bb was the best way to play against some players.we have FE from 3bwe dominate a lot of villians 3b flatting range.if we get 4b we ussualy have enough equity to call( depends on frequencies and ranges ) oh i see. didn't undersatnd your question bc part of the question about KQ was in the title :) so i skipped over it thinking you were just making a comment.ya, agree w chadders. what can i expand on more than that? you listed all the reasons it's good basically. 

SB, 88 on JJ6] Happy: "Good point in getting it in vs 6x before scarecards show up. I always flatted to let him "continue with his bluffs", but I dont know how often villain actually bluffs there, just me being paranoid about being bluffed. And also wanna be able to get away from the hand if he has Jx and leveld us, but dont think we can get away from the hand..just something i thought about. what if we have K6. should we then flat because of card removal ? there is only one 6 left whereas there is two jacks.if there was a fd i would like raising the K6 vs a lead tho." there are 2 6's left in that situation, but ya card removal is important. i would flat in that situation with any 6X fwiw bc of card removal + allow bluffs to continue. definitely agree about jamming if there is a flush draw on the board.[BB, JT on AT9ddd] Happy: "Do you think villain CB this often enough for us not to DB it?i think villian should be cbetting this flop with all his diamonds, pairs etc. so only turns that suck is like K and Q imo." this is a horrible hand to donkbet. if villain doesn't cbet, that means his range is pretty weak...we should have the best hand a lot at that point (yes he will realize equity some ofc) but we will be able to lead turns into a weak range a lot of the time for value. aside from inducing, i don't really see any value in having a donking range on this board at this stack depth. maybe you can convince me otherwise?[BB, K7 on T98] Happy: "Is a lead here good? Seems better to take controll of the hand then just CC/cf? Can we cf here since we might not get any more value if we hit our draw?" well, we aren't c/f unless he bets like full pot or something. i don't lead to "take control of the hand", if i lead here it's because i think he will play good value fast and flatting range will be relatively weak, we have good backdoor equity and can profitably barrel air on a lot of turn/river runouts...so it would be bc i think donking+barreling has better expectation than c/c! we have too much equity on the flop to just c/f. i would need to know that villains cbetting range is absurdly tight to c/f here (we don't know that). Happy: "if he cbets we will have odds to call most of the time.  by checking we get a better idea of his hand strenght , we make him define his range ?"oops, didn't see this...you touched on some of what i said above :)getting villan "to define his range" isn't a good enough reason to do something. we want it to be the maxEV option...i pretty much explained this above. obv we don't want to make a less than maxEV play just bc we can be satisfied in knowing that villains range is strong when he plays back at us - we want to do it bc it's simply the best option. 

im going to try to dig up some old posts i made about donkbetting for your db question. 

85s: looks like a hand that is going to be best 3bet shoved pre vs a lot of players. if you had reads that his opening range or mr/calling range were such that it wasn't best, than flatting > folding for sure.i prefer c/r still. it's a board that most villains are going to cbet wide - even a villain that cbets 55%, thats just an avg of all situations, this is a board that will prob be on the higher freq for him. there is a lot of value in stealing that cbet with a c/r - we don't get that value from donkbetting. yes, it costs us less chips and gives us better stack depth, but: a) we lose out on value from a wide cbet range b) we don't have to continue turns when flatted, we can simply c/r flop bc c/r the flop individually is +ev - and then realize our equity a decent amt on the turn and c) this isn't a board where donkbetting is very believable, but at the same time i definitely think donkbetting > c/cso c/r > donkbet > c/c > foldKJcc: 3bet pre to t120 for the reasons you quoted from chadders above.as played, i don't liek a donkbet particularly bc it's a board that players do not cbet wide (bc it is wet and hits our oop calling range hard). this means that we will have a bunch of turn/river leading opportunities. we can c/f flop vs a tight cbetting range.  fwiw, there are definitely some situations for donkbetting! i love donkbetting, just in the right spots vs the right frequencies. let me see if i can find those posts though.

Thanks for answering and expanding the spots I mentioned. Made sence of how to play in other spots aswell.

im going to try to dig up some old posts i made about donkbetting for your db question. - Heres one good that Ive found today: when you donkbet 54 and get in vs the typical stacking off range on a K32hh board, you are going to be WAY behind. c/c is a fine option, so clearly the best option here imo isn't to donk/3bet. when you donkbet 89 on K76 you are crushed by a range that stacks off vs you on the flop. same for Q87 board. do you see this?donkbetting works best when you are playing someone who doesnt cbet wide (a wide cbet range would make most of these hands better to c/r semibluff to get value from fe).donkbet hands that dont fair well c/c for more than 1 street:like T8 on K76T6 on Q87JThh on 7h 5x 2x98 on 652all of these hands have decent equity, but get barreled off on a ton of turns - when we do hit turns, it's going to be pretty hard to get much value in some situations bc villains wont barrel wide typically (esp JT, 98 examples)vs a nitty cbettor, bet/3bet hands that are too strong to check/call a cbet with - but vs a nitty cbettor we can expect that the range they continue vs a donkbet with will be about as tight or possibly even wider than their normal cbet range on a relatively wet board. also by donkbetting, we don't give free equity to the 50% or so of his range that he typically checks back.good bet/3bet hands vs a nitty cbettor would be:KThh on 9h 8h 4xQ6hh on 9h 8h 4xQJ on T92 (not too deep tho, prob best to donk/call a raise then)it's complicated. each hand is unique and depends on stack sizes, hand ranges, and comparing the expectation of all of our different options. basically:1) don't worry about donkbetting vs someone who cbets wide2) dont donk/3bet hands that get crushed by villains stack off range vs your 3bet - it's likely you had a much better option in either c/c or c/r.

ya, i think that post definitely sums it up pretty well! i think there might be some stack depth spots where donking some weak draws vs a wide cbettor can be better than other options though. can you think of some?