I have been playing Dagd'Bog for many games. He is a big winner at the 7 dollar with more than 4K in profit. In this game my plan was to push him around. My strategy payed off and I felt like I had an edge on him. Than this hand came and turned things around. The flop did not really hit his range (attempt to steal 55%) or mine (in this game I folded on his steals around 50%). He is very conservative against aggression and I used this already when I won the last game against him. In this game I thought to do the same trick again. On the flop he checked, I thought he did not had much and I lead out on the turn hoping for a fold. He just flat called, after the rivercard I thought to put maximum pressure on him by doing an OS. He could have the queen but that was a risk I was willing to take. Than he called with king high. I was stunned by this call. Let me know what your thought are about this play. This kind of calls are pretty rare at our level so it seems like a interesting hand.
No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players
$6.85+$0.15
Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter
| SB | Dagd'Bog | 365 | |
| BB | Hero | 635 |
Effective Stacks: 12bb
Blinds 15/30
Pre-Flop (45, 2 players)
Hero is BB
Dagd'Bog raises to 60, Hero calls 30
Flop (120, 2 players)
Hero checks, Dagd'Bog checks
Turn (120, 2 players)
Hero bets 60, Dagd'Bog calls 60
River (240, 2 players)
Hero goes all-in 515, Dagd'Bog goes all-in 245
Final Pot: 730
Dagd'Bog shows a pair of Fives - King kicker
Hero shows a pair of Fives
Dagd'Bog wins 730 ( won +365 )
Hero lost -365
on a low low low board (or a high low low, especially when it´s paired), many good players will check back ace or king high, or any two overcards, because they know they will get check raised a lot by aggressive players on that board, which will force them to give up their equity. good players will also bluff catch with their Ax and Kx on many runouts. the flush draw and all gutshots missed, so he had a pretty good reason to pick up your bluff. further more, he´s blocking some 87 combos, you would ship here. at that stack depth there really aren´t too much 5x combos in your range either. and the ones that are (like A5 or maybe K5), you would 3bet shove PF. he would also expect you to ship a lot of Qx preflop. his call here is really good imo. thanks for sharing.
Lol, we must have been replying at the same time :)
and come to a similar conclusion with different words. double lol :)
You're @ 12BB.
Which means stacking off requirements are going to be pretty light.
=> see the flop w 4.0 BB in the pot and 10BB behind
=> roughly speaking you will need 10 / 24 = 42% equity to stack off on the flop (ie. light requirements)
I will try to make sense of his play (in my opinion his play is not really that crazy).
From what you have said, your opponent perceives you as aggressive (and maybe a bit spewy if you've been pushing him around a lot).
He has Kx on this flop in a single raised pot @ 12BB on a board where neither player has usually connected beyond a draw.
If he was to cbet, he would have to cbet and call a c/r jam because your range would likely be draws on this board in a single raised pot @ 12BB.
He prefers to check back and bluff catch the turn because he thinks he will keep more bluffs in your range that way. (debatable)
You lead turn on 4 turn which only completes 87 of reasonable holdings. His Kx is still almost always good.
He calls, again following the logic that he will keep more bluffs in your range on the river, where he feels comfortable calling any non-spade river.
The Qh comes.
It's does hit part of your preflop flatting range, but probably not as much as a J or T would.
And it's not a spade, so your FDs didn't get there.
You bet 245 into 240, about pot, which he knows lays him about 33% pot odds.
=> if you are bluffing here more than 33% of time he can profitably call w Kx.
=> the number of Qx in your preflop flatting range relative to all your missed draws, and random bluffs makes this a good spot to bluff catch
I've had some matches with this guy and I thought he was quite good.
Not without leaks, but certainly better than the average fish :)
In my perspective it is a crazy call (meaning pretty good) because it is not something you do easily at the 7 dollar level. If you would, you would go against population tendencies. This means he had a very good reads on me and with the call he didn't even hesitate. So nicely played by my opponent and I do not think my play was that bad, but against him I will tink twice next time.
LVT
yes, but he´s not playing against population tendencies. you said you already played a couple of games, so he´d be an idiot to play against the average of the population. population tendencies should merely give you a default strategy. as soon as you play a couple of hands against someone, you should deviate from the default strategy if necesarry.
sorry to disagree, but i don´t think your play was that good, because you´re not representing anything on that board. he will call you with almost anything he is checking back the flop with.
cheers
s.
That is nonsense. I can represent a lot that is in my range and would have flat called with. A4, K4 K5, K6, Q4s, Q5 Q6,J4,J5,T6,T5s.78 Many hands which I would lead out with on the turn. Many times, in same situations I do get the pot by a bluff or win the pot because I had hit something. You can not talk about a great error here. I had the feeling he didn't had anything and I went for it. This is as close as it gets, and this time I think he had the feeling I chased some missed draw and made the call.
LVT
if he had nothing at all, he would bet fold the flop or give up on the turn. at that stack depth a float on the turn with no showdown value is moronic. if he calls you on the turn he must have something he is also willing to call the river with on certain runouts. the Q which does not complete any draw is a good card for him to bluff catch. the missed draws (including total bluffs) outnumber your value hands here. it´s hard to think of such things ingame and in the heat of the moment i wouldn´t disagree with your play, i also tend to bet more often than i should sometimes, because it works on most opponents, but analyzing the hand away from the felt and thinking about it a little, the double barrel on that runout against a thinking player was a bit too gutsy.
edit: of course you are right, you DO represent something on that board. but the main thing an aggressive player represents on a paired board where a lot of draws miss, is a bluff.
cheers
s.
Simultaneous reply again :P
Can 100% relate to comment about heat of moment default attack turn + 2barrel when flop gets checked back.
This has been a great hand to break down in my opinion.
Thanks for posting, I have got a lot out of it :)
yep. default attack on the turn. but it´s a normal thing to do, because most of the time against most opponents in low and mid stakes it works. either they are calling stations who you can´t barrel off anything anyway (which you will know after the first game you lose against them) or they fold marginal SDV when they shouldn´t. and then suddenly there are thinking players against whom you have to consider the board and your perceived range in order to pull off a bluff. it´s hard to adjust there, because most opponents are simply bad.
In villain's position I would not be putting many of these hands in your OOP flatting range @ 12BB.
I think assuming you have a range almost entirely consisting of 2 cards between a 8 and Q would not be a large mistake.
As such, consistent with my previous post, I don't think you represent much value other than a rivered Qx, sometimes 87.
If you have shown competent (or over) aggression, I am not putting any Ax, Kx or much Qx in your OOP flatting range.
This leaves your turn lead + river 2barrel jam quite heavily weighted to bluffs.
With respect to the best play to play the hand.
It's pretty marginal.
=> as DiplKomp correctly points out, a thinking players' check back range here will have SDV, usually in the form of high card value on this board
=> as such, the turn 4, is not a good card to lead on because villain should be calling (for reasons previously broken down)
=> had the turn been a Q,J,T, I think it would have been a better opportunity to lead turn and jam river as bluff especially if the FD gets there
If villain is opening a wide enough range prefop, we can seriously consider 3b jamming here.
But flatting and playing for implied value vs an expected high cbetting frequency could have better expectation.
It's pretty close.
very nice summed up by dipl.komp and cdon3822, not sure what I think about your play here. On turn it's maybe ok to make a stab. On this river vs a good reg I think its better to give up. vs what cards would he fold? Probably 789tj or a spade would be the best cards for your range vs his check range, except Ks and As, and the best bluff cards for you vs his range. And same on the river, in addition to a 3 of course (I don't think you have many 3's in your range, so with a 2 on river I think he would call) I would be very surprised to see you show a4 here, because not that many flat calls a4 with 12bb, and if you did, you would have most likely checked river.
Btw I think you opponent would set himself in a bad situation by cbetting here, because even if you fold 50% in general, you probably wouldn't on this flop, I would guess 35-40%, and if you push he would probably be behind but pot commited to call, so for him it's much better to see whether the turn card is a good card for him, in this situation it was neither very good or very bad, and same on the river so he calls.
You are right about the A4, I would not have been flatting that one. I would c-bet here from SB with K high and Ace high and call an 3-bet shove depending on the opponent. Seems to me a better strategy than calling down a double barrel with k-high, which is not risk-free and gives your opponent a lot of options. In this situation it worked, many times it won't because I will not do this 100% of the time and there will be a lot of bets here from me aiming to make draws pays.
LVT