Hello guys,
I don't understand if there is really much of a difference between the 3.5s and the 7s hypers. I'm a winning player at the 3.5s and when I have enough BR I go up the 7s only to get crush and I move back down to the 3.5s.
Players at the 7s seem to c/r my cbets, call 2 barrels, and 3bet PF more often. Any of you micro stakes players out there having the same problem? I have attached my PT4 stats for what it is worth. Videos packs I have viewed are Sentin's and Chadder's.
My ROI dropped a bit from the 3.5s to the 7s. (4% to 3%)
Given there was a decrease in % rake and I got better over the same period moving up, I would conclude there is a general skill increase from the 3.5s to the 7s.
It is unlikely though, that you have a +2% ROI @ 3.5s and a -7% ROI @ 7s. There's not that big of a skill gap between the games.
You might be psyching yourself out, playing poorly because you're now playing for more money?
Focus on what your opponent is doing, work out how to best exploit their mistakes and justify every decision because it has better expectation than every other strategic decision available to you. Think of the money as chips in a game rather than an investment you need to get a return on.
I believe the hyper turbo format leads to an equilibrium where most players will play their value hands in a very similar way. As such, a lot of your reciprocal edge over your opponents in hypers comes from bluffing in spots where your opponents would give up on the pot. Some players, and you may or may not be one of them, will lower their 2barrel and 3barrel bluffing frequencies significantly when they move up a limit because they are scared to pull the trigger for more money. Don't default to weak tight play because you've moved up a limit.
Thanks for pointing that out. I really think there's quite a difference between the 3.5s and the 7s. It's not a psychological thing at all but my game probably has lots of leaks. I'm properly rolled for the 7s as I've waited my roll to reach $800 before trying them out again. Now I'm back to $600 so on to the 3.5s .
Strategy wise, I always get caught bluffing when I try to fold villain's 2nd pair (eg. board of K82T). I cbet close to 100% and give up on a villain cbet raise close to 100% also. If my cbet gets called, depending on stack size I always 2nd barrel.
Also, is it a good play to check/shove flop if you have a flush draw? I'm asking this because most of the time I do this I get called, and most of the time math says I will miss.
You might be cbetting and barreling too much then.
There are definitely spots where you should have a checking back range and there are board run outs which you should not be 2barreling after cbetting.
With respect to whether it is good to c/r shove FDs => it depends on:
- villain's preflop opening range
- villain's cbet fold range
- villain's cbet call c/r jam range
- hero's perceived c/r jamming range
Your FDs tend to have about 35% equity on the flop when called (assuming they're not dominated).
So for example if you're in a single raised pot @ 25BB, facing a half pot cbet:
pot on flop, P0 = 4.0 BB
cbet = 2.0 BB
pot after cbet, P1 = 4.0 + 2.0 = 6.0 BB
c/r jam, J = 25 - 2 = 23.0 BB
final pot when called, P2 = 25 * 2 = 50.0 BB
villain has to call, C = 25 - 2 - 2 = 21.0 BB
EV(c/r jam) = f * P1 + (1-f) * [ P2 * e - J ]
or in terms of effective stacks (S),
EV(c/r jam) = f * 6.0 + (1-f) * [2*S*e - (S-2)]
where:
f = % villain folds to c/r jam
e = equity vs villain's cbet and call c/r jam range
so we can calculate the amount of folds we need w a FD w assumed 35% equity to make c/r jamming +EV.
0 = f * 6.0 + (1-f) * [2*S*e - (S-2)]
@ S = 25BB * e = 35%
0 = f * 6 + (1-f) (50*0.35 - 23)
0 = 6f -5.5 + 5.5f
f = 5.5 / 11.5 ~ 48%
So villain needs to be cbet folding 48% of the time to make c/r jamming profitable.
In the case we solved for above, villain needs to have approximately 1 cbet fold for every 1 cbet call c/r jam in his cbetting range to make c/r jamming + EV.
Note that if we have overcards, or additional forms of equity (eg. gutshot or overcards), then the ~35% will increase and we require less folds.
The expectation sensitivity for various fold & equity % for various stack are shown below:
@ 25BB in single raised pot facing half pot cbet:
f
0%
20.0%
40.0%
60.0%
80.0%
100.0%
e
20%
-13.0
-9.2
-5.4
-1.6
2.2
6.0
30.0%
-8.0
-5.2
-2.4
0.4
3.2
6.0
40.0%
-3.0
-1.2
0.6
2.4
4.2
6.0
50.0%
2.0
2.8
3.6
4.4
5.2
6.0
60.0%
7.0
6.8
6.6
6.4
6.2
6.0
70.0%
12.0
10.8
9.6
8.4
7.2
6.0
80.0%
17.0
14.8
12.6
10.4
8.2
6.0
@ 20BB in single raised pot facing half pot cbet:
f
0%
20.0%
40.0%
60.0%
80.0%
100.0%
e
20%
-10.0
-6.8
-3.6
-0.4
2.8
6.0
30.0%
-6.0
-3.6
-1.2
1.2
3.6
6.0
40.0%
-2.0
-0.4
1.2
2.8
4.4
6.0
50.0%
2.0
2.8
3.6
4.4
5.2
6.0
60.0%
6.0
6.0
6.0
6.0
6.0
6.0
70.0%
10.0
9.2
8.4
7.6
6.8
6.0
80.0%
14.0
12.4
10.8
9.2
7.6
6.0
@ 15BB in single raised pot facing half pot cbet:
f
0%
20.0%
40.0%
60.0%
80.0%
100.0%
e
20%
-7.0
-4.4
-1.8
0.8
3.4
6.0
30.0%
-4.0
-2.0
0.0
2.0
4.0
6.0
40.0%
-1.0
0.4
1.8
3.2
4.6
6.0
50.0%
2.0
2.8
3.6
4.4
5.2
6.0
60.0%
5.0
5.2
5.4
5.6
5.8
6.0
70.0%
8.0
7.6
7.2
6.8
6.4
6.0
80.0%
11.0
10.0
9.0
8.0
7.0
6.0
You can see that it can be very +EV to c/r jam flopped equity draws vs wide openers + wide cbettors who will frequently fold to c/r jams.
Advanced note: against good players, if you are c/r jamming draws and c/r NAI with your non-drawing hands, a good player will be able to adjust his cbet call c/r jamming range to account for it being draw heavy. You can readjust to exploit his adjustment by c/r jamming strong value hands on two tone or otherwise drawy boards :)
Although it might be too early to tell if I really fixed some leaks or this is just variance with me running hot. From around a negative buyins won to around 60 buyins in the green since this post of your CDON3822!
You may have lost me the moment I saw those linear equations you put out :) But with regard to cbetting and barreling too much, you were spot on. I did that minor adjustment and it immediately improved my game. I hope the run up is because of what I'm doing right and not because of plain luck. I'll come back to this thread and let you know what happens in my next 300-500 games. Btw, here's a view of my chart now :)
I do not wanna be mean or something, but if you really worked your way trough the forementioned video packs, a 2% ROI on the $3.50 is a low ROI and chances are that you still have many flaws in your game.
Hi.
You're just keeping it real sir :) As long as it's going to help my game, keep the meanness coming. Yes I have a lot of flaw, my goal is to study those packs again. What should my ROI be around then? 4%? Thank you!
With little bit of table selection 4% should be possibly. The same is true for the $7 level...maybe even up to 7% (but in order to achieve this, you need to be really good and table select hard).
Hi.
Almost certain it is not possible to achieve 7% ROI over meaningful samples.
Although the edges are bigger at lower stakes, the rake is also higher.
I believe achieveable ROI are capped at about 4-5%.
3% is solid.
4% you would be one of the better players at the stake and should look to move up.
Like I said before; 7% would make you one of the most crushing players on this level. It would be achieveable, but, of course, no player with such high rois would ever spend enough time on such a low level in order to 'confirm' it. Furthermore it would require a huge amount of table selecting.
4 to 5% are very good ROIs.
Hi.
I would say it's more likely that you're around a breakeven player at both levels right now based on these stats. Maybe a slight winner at both levels.
I would work on posting hands, and reviewing those video packs occassionally as well. Do something like spend 3x your time posting hands and reviewing your own game privately, spend 9x playing and 1x on reviewing the video packs again.
So something like 9 hours playing to 3 hours reviewing and posting hands to 1 hour video pack review. Do that for a month or two and see how well you're doing after that.
Don't get worried about differences in $7s vs $3.50s. Without established regs, the difference between each level is very low, even high stakes ($500 losers vs $1k buyin losers are not terribly difference for example). And there shouldn't really be many established regs in the $3.50s and $7s, at best there are basically guys like you, trying to improve, winning overall, but are still in the primary learning phase.
In short, just work on improving your game and don't let the buyin influence anything, you can definitely beat that level, you can beat the $30s too, and even higher. Just work at it and keep progressing, you will get there.
Thanks for the advice and the confidence builder... I have a full-time work so id probably play 3 hours and study for 30 mins.
...because of the dramatic change in play; one would think that the step-up from the $3.50s would be pretty straight forward but there are many a curveball lying in wait. RyPac is certainly correct regarding regs; there are very few and those that are there are very leaky, hence their prolonged stay.
The most notable difference from the $3.50s is the increase in aggression; the average player at the $7s is far more aggressive than he at the $3.50 (this includes and is often spew). It is still a very small stake at risk so players are not terribly interested in folding. All in all the $7s are pretty easy to beat using an exploitable and fairly straight forward strategy.
The advice form Cdon and RyPac is spot on. In addition, I would recommend the following:
I could go on for hours about the $7 level - I spent quite some time there so feel I have the general strategy down. Add me on Skype (wubblepig) if you would like some more help.
Good luck.
Nice advice wubblepig.
The corollary of underbetting for thin value is to identify when your opponent is doing it vs you.
It can make for some very nice multi-street float + bluff spots which are very profitable vs the right opponents.
http://www.husng.com/content/interesting-river-spot-3b-pot-vs-2barrel-turn-river-underbets
I added you on skype.
There was some good discussion that came out here:
http://www.husng.com/content/i-beat-reg-and-lose-fish-all-days-long-i-guest-im-just-fish-myself
about profiling and adjusting your ranges/strategies to exploit common fish tendencies @ the micros.
Very useful information Wubblepig especially the thin value thing. I almost never thin value my hands whether it be 2nd pairs or top pairs. When I barrel I always do half pot and the fact that most players here are passive stations, this gets me into trouble most of the times.
Thanks for pointing out that folding in position is probably my biggest leak because I think it really is. PT4 says I raise 48% of hand at the button. Its either I raise or fold, almost never limp. Question, If you limp and gets raised with a mediocre hand like J5o Q3o, do you simply fold it? What hands are you continuing with?
I will add you on Skype (P0gy08) Thanks a bunch!
I know I am digging out old thread here, but I just read it and I have to say thanks.
This is for this kind of thread that I am happy to visit HUSNG.
The advices given here ring a bell and will surely help me improving my game at micro stakes (3 barelling smaller with Medium pairs, not folding too much in SB, etc)
Thanks for sharing this valuable information (and sorry for digging up old stuff )
Cheers
PokerPuker
HU Hyper Tilter