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Ellzebub's picture
Tough spot on river???

Hey everyone,

New to posting here as I recently moved over from cash games to husng 's. Just a question on bet sizing in this spot. Villain has a very low cbet so I lead out on the flop for max value. I've also got a note on villain that he likes to attack rivers if I show weakness. On the turn I'm pretty sure I'm ahead after villain flats the flop as a 3 is a very unlikely part of his 3bet calling range, so i bet again to get value from weaker PP's and draws. So what happens wen the river brings 3 to a flush? If I try and bet-fold I feel commited to the pot and I'm stuck in a tough situation if he shoves, If I check villain will almost certainly bluff and leave me stuck in a tricky spot. So either way it seems i'm screwed. I know my sizing is bad and I should probably bet smaller. So what do you guys think my best play is here and how would you size your bets on each street?

Thanks :)

No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players • PokerStars
$28.57+$1.43

Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight.com

SB villain 1580  
BB hero 1420  

Effective Stacks: 47bb

Blinds 15/30

  • Pre-Flop (45, 2 players) Hero is BB
  • cKsQ
villain raises to 60, hero raises to 150, villain calls 90
  • Flop (300, 2 players)
  • c2dQd3
hero bets 150, villain calls 150
  • Turn (600, 2 players)
  • c3
hero bets 300, villain calls 300
  • River (1200, 2 players)
  • d4

 

  • Final Pot: 1200
 
cdon3822's picture
Agree - gross spot!

Pretty gross spot!

I think it's really close between an underbet fold and a check fold on the river. Most villain's won't get to this river spot given the action with many bluffs and we expect his range at the start of the river to be comprised of:

- Qx

- flushes

- sometimes PP 44-88 ish depending on villain's preflop 4b jam tendencies @ this stack depth

 

And given typical villain's aren't sick enough to turn weak show down value into a bluff vs a perceived capped underbet or check range on the river here, it is likely we are ahead of villain's calling range vs an underbet / check behind range vs a check and behind of his raising range in either case. The more likely villain is to semibluff jam his FDs on either the flop or turn, the more I would err on the side of bet folding because it will reweight his starting river range towards weak show down value which can curiosity call an underbet.

 

Spots like this makes you wonder whether you made a mistake earlier in the hand. Intuitively, it looks well played to me and you just got an unlucky runout. But it would be interesting to model the protection benefits of different raise sizes on the turn here, including the option to overbet.

Additionally this is a hand which plays great as a bluff catcher OOP postflop, so I would probably mix it between my 3b & flatting range based on player specific reads & gameflow. Imo to make 3b significantly better than flatting I need to believe villain will continue with a lot of dominated Kx & Qx and overvalue top pair hands postflop. Without such a read, I prefer to use such a holding to strengthen my postflop c/c ranges to take advantage of typically high cbet & barrel tendencies and expand out my 3b NAI frequency with bluffs to take advantage of the typical perceived nuttiness of 3b ranges.

Ellzebub's picture
Thanks for the feedback  "it

Thanks for the feedback

 "it would be interesting to model the protection benefits of different raise sizes on the turn here, including the option to overbet."

 

I'm also interested in this. How would you go about running such analysis?

cdon3822's picture
Design of solution

Modeling this will be quite difficult & time consuming (but not impossible). The approach I would use (solution design only - I haven't actually ran this analysis to date).

You would need assumptions to find villain's turn starting range derived from a first principle build up of:

- min raise range

- call 3b nai range

- call flop cbet range

Then you would need to map villain's price sensitivity (net of relative hand strength vs perceived hand strength of various bet sizes) for his various holdings in his turn starting range. Ideally you would use a complete distribution, but in order to simplify to discreet measurable categories I would probably categories villain's hand distribution into something like:

- strong nutty made hands (eg. 2pair +)

- strong non-nut made hands (eg. top pair)

- weak made hands (eg. 2nd or 3rd pair)

- strong draws (eg. nut flush draw or FD+OESD)

- weak draws (eg. gutshot)

You would then calculate the expectation of betting size B, where B= f(P,S); P = pot size at start of turn, S = effective stack

so X is bound by

- 0 where you check; and

- (S-P/2) where you bet your entire remaining stack

including the expected river hand distributions & actions across all potential river cards for the cases where there is still money left behind at the end of turn play. That is, to model the turn in isolation, you need to also incorporate into your decision what will probabilistically happen on the river.

Conceptually I would expect you could then run a sensitivity analysis of value vs protection benefit sub components of net expectation as a function of a two dimensional array spanning villain's hand type on one axis and our turn bet sizing on the other.

Based on intuition, I would expect that the price sensitivity function for villain facing any overbets will significantly contract his continuing range. That is, even though at equilibrium, we would expect that villain's continuing range would be a function of bet sizing to stop hero being able to overbet bluff ATC, I would expect most villains to perceive our overbets to be quite imbalanced and thus villain will respond in a binary fashion - always calling or always folding as a function of the particular hand type he holds and how it fares vs our perceived imbalanced overbetting range.

So you could simplify the problem by assuming villain only calls a turn overbet with particular hands that lie above some treshold (eg. 2pair +). Then you could calculate the value of the equity you fold out by overbet jamming turn vs the value of keeping more hands in villain's range making a smaller, more "standard" bet size vs villain's continuing range. We would still need to consider how we expect he will play his various holdings on the turn and the river for the full distribution of river cards. But once you know the distribution of villain's range, how he plays the subsets of that range vs various bet sizes and structurally how often dynamic holdings improve it becomes a relatively simple problem to solve.

Ellzebub's picture
Thanks cdon for your

Thanks cdon for your indepth response.

It's interesting to see how one would go about tackling such a problem. I'd say I'd run the numbers however I think it is slightly beyond my mathematical capabilities :)

it1111's picture
You have less than 1 pot

You have less than 1 pot size bet left on the river and your hand is too strong to fold. You cant just fold strong top pair every time 3rd flush card comes on the board. 
You also have a read that villain attacks weakness when checked to so this is a perfect hand to bluff-catch.
Perfect situation for check-calling the river.

"If you want to win, you must not lose!"

adam25185's picture
I broadly agree with the

I broadly agree with the analysis of it1111.

I would be check-calling, hoping that villain does not shove. However, if villain shoves, I'm probably calling anyway. I hate betting small and then folding on the river; far too many opponents will shove over a small bet as a bluff here.

One point of interest: I think your 3bet preflop was too small to eliminate 3x from villain's range. I would 3bet larger, maybe to t180 or t195. Also, your turn bet is a little small. I think an overbet-shove on the turn wouldn't be particularly out of line, given there are two diamonds onboard. Even a 3/4 pot bet on the turn would make the river an easy c/c.

Hope this helps
 

Ellzebub's picture
Thanks guys So your saying

Thanks guys

So your saying that It's best to call a large bet on the river even though pretty much all of villains draws got there? It seems like quite a large part of villains range for c/calling off a big bet in this spot. I cant really see villain continuing preflop with any 3 other than maybe A3s /K3s which I felt was such a small part of villains range that I could pretty much eliminate it.

I like the idea of a larger 3bet pre at this blind level.

What do you guys think of a t 195 3Bet pre - betting around 220 on flop and overbet jamming the turn? as a creative line that gives us both Value and protection from getting drawn out on?? 

cdon3822's picture
I disagree

You have less than 1 pot size bet left on the river and your hand is too strong to fold. You cant just fold strong top pair every time 3rd flush card comes on the board. 
You also have a read that villain attacks weakness when checked to so this is a perfect hand to bluff-catch.
Perfect situation for check-calling the river.

 

You have 820 left behind and the pot is 1200.

So if you check call vs a jam you need 820 / (1200+820+820) = 29% equity vs villain's river jamming range.

This means for every value hand (which we are behind entirely assuming villain never jams worse Qx), villain needs to be bluffing 0.29 hands.

Or another way, villain needs to have 1 bluff combo for every 3.4 value combos to make c/c better than c/f on the river here.

 

You assert that our hand here is "too strong to fold".

I disagree.

In a 3b pot vs typical villain tendencies and this board run out, I believe c/c will be a losing play vs villain's river jamming range. To put it simply, our hand has been devalued to a bluff catcher by the river given the action & board run out and villain doesn't have enough bluffs in his river jamming range to profitably c/c.

 

But I would be happy to be wrong and learn something.

Show me a range which villain gets to this river spot with that he is bluffing more than 29% of the time?

In order validate this range, you should also include your conditional working assumptions:

- min raising range

- 3b nai flatting range

- flop flatting range

- turn flatting range

- river range when checked to

=> river jamming range

=> river check behind range

it1111's picture
Hi cdon3832,Your analysis is

Hi cdon3832,

Your analysis is very good and it is certainly true for a standard, rational opponent, but many opponents are not standard or rational. 

I didn't go in such a deep range analysis myself but my decision is based on two pieces of information that OP gives:

    - "I've also got a note on villain that he likes to attack rivers if I show weakness."

    - "If I check villain will almost certainly bluff and leave me stuck in a tricky spot."

This info if enough for me to make drastic changes to my gameplay and "adjust" to my opponent. The play is highly exploitative and it would be wrong against standard ranges and standard villain, but my decision is based on the "read" that villain is a player who bluffs a lot and this changes the situation. Folding strong top pair against someone who bluffs a lot when a perfect bluffing or "scary" card comes on the river is not a good play in my opinion.

To make a proper analysis and to construct villains ranges I would need to have info on some other villains tendencies and stats (min raising %, fold to nai 3b %, fold to cbet in 3b pot %...) but unfortunately this piece of information is missing in the post, so my decision is based solely on those 2 pieces of information that are available.
 

Without this additional info it is hard to say if a villain bluffs on the river more than 29% of time. He also sometime jams value hands that we beat (weaker Queens, pocket pairs JJ-55, and even some 4x occasionally) so we don't actually need him to bluff 29%, this percentage is much lower. 

 

 

"If you want to win, you must not lose!"

vherreral's picture
Given the info about

Given the info about villain's tendencies on the river when it gets checked to him, I like it's idea. On the other hand, yh if he had a fd, he got there, but isn't it a disaster if villain's got Qx that he'll never fold to a river jam, but he will check it back?? furthermore, if he's got 55-77, I think he'll sometimes herocall a riverjam.

So without doing the math to take in2 account the times he's got the boat, trips or flush, my guess is that a riverjam is profitable here, if this isn't the case, this is what playing on .fr can make u to ur thought process ;)

 

Btw, his 3b sizing with KQ is probly gud imo, u don't want them folding their Qx's or Kx's by 3betting large with KQ, am i rite??

VHL

Ellzebub's picture
Thanks everyone. Seems like

Thanks everyone.

Seems like there is no clear cut answer to this 1.

I'm still unsure what the best decision is here. I have also been considering the option of under betting on all streets post flop to allow myself the option to comfortably bet fold the river, however I am unsure what effect this would have on villains to perceive my bets as weak and bluff more often. 

Would this make sense as a viable solution?  

 

Ellzebub's picture
Any more thoughts? I cant see

Any more thoughts?

I cant see any point in letting this go when no1 has figured out the best solution? Isnt that the point of analyzing these hands?

it1111's picture
The way you played pre-flop,

The way you played pre-flop, flop and turn is quite standard. No real mistake there. Another option is to size your bets bigger on every street so that your turn bet is all in. This would make your life easier as you won’t need to play the river…

Playing 2 streets instead of 3 post-flop when out of position should generally benefit the player in BB…

 

The real question in this hand is how to play the river. 3 people gave 3 different answers (check-fold, check-call, bet all in…). Which play is the best?  It is very hard to say without knowing villains tendencies. I could imagine each of the 3 solution to be good versus different type of players:

 

1. Against a tight villain who doesn’t get in this spot with enough air: CHECK-FOLD would be best.

2. Against a loose-aggressive player who does have enough air and likes to bluff: CHECK-CALL would be best.

3. Against a loose-passive player who likes to hero call river bets:  BET ALL-IN would be best.

 

 

 

 

 

"If you want to win, you must not lose!"

cdon3822's picture
I'm convinced it's a pretty

I'm convinced it's a pretty clear c/f for the reasons I provided. 

The only counter arguments offered by other posters was that villain will bluff us when we check to him. That's valid if villain gets to the river with enough missed draws in his range or if he's capable of turning a weak show down holding into a bluff - neither of which are true in this case given the action & board run out within the context of typical villain tendencies in 3b pots. 

I expect we will be ahead of his check behind range, behind his jamming range when we check to him and he doesn't call with a worse hand enough to merit a bet on the river. A check fold with our bluff catcher here is exploitable if villain bluffs too much. But if he's constructing his preflop, flop and turn ranges such that he gets to the river with a ton of hands to bluff with and exploit us, he playing a strategy which deviates quite far from the villains I've played against. 

it1111's picture
Hi cdon3822the game in

Hi cdon3822,

the game in question is $30 regular speed game. I played quite a lot of these over the years and from my experience I can say this:

 

$30 regular speed games are reg infested so if OP is new to these games he is much more likely to play a reg than a fish.

 

Standard 3bet size in those games is 160-220 at this stack depth. The hero 3 bets to 150 (smaller than usual) so i don’t expect many folds pre flop. Most suited hands, pocket-pairs, Ax hands and 2 high card and 2 connected-card hands will call his 3bet.

 

Cbet size on the flop is again quite small. Most people cbet 2/3 of the pot and 3/4 of the pot in these games. Hero cbets 1/2 pot so I don’t expect many folds on this flop with only 1 high card (flop is quite bad for heros range and many competent villains will call with random 2 cards with the intention to bluff later). Many Ax hands, gut-shots and backdoor flush draws (most club-club hands), pocket pairs and other floats (random broadway cards) will call this cbet and many diamond flush draws will raise and some of them will call.

 

Turn card doesn’t change a lot  but it brings another flush draw on the board and all suited club-club hands that floated the flop will now call the turn bet, A4, A5 and some other Ax hands will likely call another bet, all value hands that where good on the flop are still good and will call another 1/2 pot bet.

 

River completes the diamond flush draw and some unlikely straight draws. This leaves our villain with a range of:

-many bluff-catchers (Qx, pocket pairs 55-JJ, occasional 4x, A4, 45 and 46),

-strong value hands (rare trips, full houses and straights, some flushes (he often raises diamond flush draws on the flop so he doesn’t have that many flushes here)),

-many air hands (missed club-club draws, Ax hands and other floats that missed).

This will give villain quite a lot of air hands to bluff in this spot. Certainly more than 29% of his range is air.

 

I  checked this hand in CREV and for me it is an easy check-call given the villains bluffing tendencies on the river…

 

"If you want to win, you must not lose!"

cdon3822's picture
Against someone with the

Against someone with the tendencies you describe preflop - turn play, the river probably becomes a value jam. 

I rarely play against people who have continuing frequencies anywhere near this wide so their river ranges tend to be a lot stronger than the range you describe ...

it1111's picture
Yes, the ranges I describe

Yes, the ranges I describe are definitely on the looser side, these are very close to the ranges that I would play in similar situation, and I don't like to fold much... so they might be "a little bit" biased.
So if you ever play me, now you have the strategy to beat me. 

 

"If you want to win, you must not lose!"

adam25185's picture
Hi allReading through the

Hi all

Reading through the hand again and all the comments, I'd like to revise my view as follows:

If we are 3betting to 150 and betting 1/2 pot flop and turn, we (in theory) need to fold this river. We have bet too small to force out the draws (or at least stack the odds in our favour). We've misplayed the hand.

If we are 3betting to 180 and betting 2/3 - 3/4 pot on the flop and turn, we are committed, and must c/c or shove. One or other will be best depending on whether villain is loose passive or spewtasitc.

Would be interested to hear further thoughts.

 

ARRONWILSON's picture
I prefer checking the turn

I prefer checking the turn here for a few reasons but especially if you have reads this guy attacks river if you show weakness.  To me that would mean you have had hands in the past where you have raised pre or 3bet pre, cbet flop, checked turn when called and he has taken the play away from you, I am also guessing you have had a hand to call him with before too with that line and seen he may of floated you to get that read.  

Vs players like that its vital you have strong hands in your cbet flop and check turn range, if you only 2barrel strong hands and cbet flop and check behind turn with hands you are giving up with you are going to be really unbalanced to players thinking about your ranges and lines.  

I think this is a good hand to put in your cbet flop and check turn range to balance it which will pick up value from his hands that float your cbet range to see what you do on the turn.  It will make your lines more balanced and harder to play against vs regs.  Also I don't think your hand is polarized enough to barrel turn there with those reads, you are bloating the pot and are going to get stacked by his a3, k3s, 53s hands and also just fold out his floats.  Yes vs his flush draws you lose value, but thats only one part of his range and hes not folding that anyway and you can bluffcatch vs that when you check it to him.  If he bets turn you have a hand strong enough you can check call vs his floats, if he checks back turn on river you have an easy bet fold with the pot not as bloated now.  

On river we have to go for value as there is hands that he checks back but also calls a bet with, worse Qx, a2, a4 clubs that has a gutshot on flop with an over and turns the nut flush draw and rivers a pair, and some medium PPs if he thinks its not profitable enough to 4bet shove vs your 3betting range.  

Ellzebub's picture
Never even thought of

Never even thought of checking back the turn here Arron. I think uve hit the nail on the head with your analysis and it is definitely a line I will be taking in the future in this spot. 

Thanks everyone for your input, it has been very helpful.