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cdon3822's picture
$15 turbo - linecheck please?

2nd hand of match vs unknown presumed fish (russian bronze star player @ $15 turbo game)

Linecheck please?

 

No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players • PokerStars
$14.39+$0.61

Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight.com

SB Core63 1470  
BB hero 1530  

Effective Stacks: 74bb

Blinds 10/20

  • Pre-Flop (30, 2 players) Hero is BB
  • c4dK
Core63 raises to 60, hero calls 40
  • Flop (120, 2 players)
  • hKcKcA
hero checks, Core63 bets 20, hero raises to 80, Core63 raises to 140, hero raises to 340, Core63 calls 200
  • Turn (800, 2 players)
  • hA
hero checks, Core63 checks
  • River (800, 2 players)
  • sJ
hero checks, Core63 bets 800, hero folds

 

  • Final Pot: 800
 
  • Core63 wins 1600 ( won +400 )
  • hero lost -400
andre3k's picture
All I can say is I wouldn't

All I can say is I wouldn't check raise such a weak Kx on this flop

 

Can someone shed some light on what it means when a fish takes a line like this. One that would have my value hands and semi bluffs check / folding the turn without putting in another dime?

I don't know about the population but I have a very suspicious mind.

When I check raise AKx flops as a bluff it gets through but when I check raise AKK flops it gets raised which make no sense.

When I had enough to showdown they had air.

Bauce. 

adam25185's picture
Hi there cdon3822 I'd

Hi there cdon3822

I'd probably pay it off. No real reason other than 1/3 pot odds, and missed flush draws. We have a full house, hard to fold etc.

Don't know if this helps at all. Would be interested to hear further discussion.
 

ARRONWILSON's picture
I call here.  When you

I call here.  When you checkraise that flop and villain clicks it back he shouldn't be doing that with ace x as he is just bloating the pot the times u re raise him back with trips, so its either king x plus or air.  I do expect villain to float you here sometimes with his flop 3bet bluffing range to see what you do on the turn as the times you are bluffing you should really be giving up as his perceived range will look so strong to take that line and he will get to take the play away from you on the turn or river.  If the runout blanks out here i assume you aren't folding so you would need villian to be 3betting the flop and calling a 4bet pretty merged or put him on a really narrow range of AA and AK to justify a fold.  

cdon3822's picture
Still a bit confused about villain's range given the action

Thanks for the feedback guys.

When you checkraise that flop and villain clicks it back he shouldn't be doing that with ace x as he is just bloating the pot the times u re raise him back with trips, so its either king x plus or air.

I think this is absolutely correct for a thinking player. But a fish can reraise Ax here a non-zero percent of the time. And there are 3 combos of Ax left in the deck, only 1 combo of Kx & there are likely more Ax in his preflop 3x range. I also thought (maybe incorrectly) that when he flatted rather than jammed vs my NAI reraise that his range might have more Ax & FDs relative to the Kx.

I do expect villain to float you here sometimes with his flop 3bet bluffing range to see what you do on the turn as the times you are bluffing you should really be giving up as his perceived range will look so strong to take that line and he will get to take the play away from you on the turn or river.  If the runout blanks out here i assume you aren't folding so you would need villian to be 3betting the flop and calling a 4bet pretty merged or put him on a really narrow range of AA and AK to justify a fold.

If I expect villain to float me with a decent percentage here I am probably checking turn to induce and calling down because his floats have to bet. But my motivation for reraising flop was to get value from what I thought he would call down with Ax & FDs. Because I expect a fish to have more Ax in his range here given the preflop 3x & their general propensity to play FDs passively more often than not, I felt the turn was the worst card in the deck for me vs villain's range. His check back was a bit confusing but when he potted the river I felt like his range was polarised between missed FDs & trickily (suboptimally) played Ax. I also considered that I am calling some percentage of the time simply to split the pot, but I thought his sizing decreased the likelihood he held Kx (I see people bet smaller with Kx here).

Not really sure what you mean by having to put him on AA or AK? Any Ax beats me here. Do you not expect him to reraise his Ax and flat it when reraised again? My perception of fish in this spot is that they will overplay Ax a lot because they are terrified of two tone boards hitting on a later street and devaluing their hand. Do you think I am assigning too much weight to Ax to his starting turn range given the preflop & flop action?

In summary, I felt like I was up against Ax most of the time here combinatorically and usually when a fish pots the river they have it. My main concern is that I put myself in a position on the turn / river OOP that had me folding a very strong holding. Expectation wise, it's pretty irrelevant because the part of his range (Ax) that I am most actively targeting when I reraise the flop here blocks the turn card that makes this spot so gross. So across my entire strategy I guess it doesn't cost me too much to have to give up on this run out.

I also posted the hand on 2+2 and some guys suggested the call pre was probably incorrect OOP while still so deep. But I didn't have any reads about what his 3x meant at that time (hadn't seen his other opening frequencies yet) and not defending such hands would make me pretty easy to play against because it would contract my defending frequency so much and unbalance a lot of my c/c ranges on K hi boards postflop.

Dipl.Komp.'s picture
I also posted the hand on 2+2

I also posted the hand on 2+2 and some guys suggested the call pre was probably incorrect OOP while still so deep.

 

bloody nits!

andre3k's picture
I don't know how to quote

I don't know how to quote text. But this is a very important point.

"his 3x meant at that time (hadn't seen his other opening frequencies yet) and not defending such hands would make me pretty easy to play against because it would contract my defending frequency so much and unbalance a lot of my c/c ranges on K hi boards postflop."

I play tournaments and the whole table is thrown off by a single fish playing 40%vpip and opening to 3x, 3 betting to 2x and potting all flops. 

The point being is their ranges aren't carefully constructed and if they can beat you just by sizing all their hands to 3x, seemingly without reason, then your going to get crushed.

Then i'll see hands posted where some 3 bet a weak Kx at a depth they could have flatted and have no idea how to play TP.

Bauce. 

mountain walk's picture
Villain could easily have and

Villain could easily have and Ace in this position; he could naturally bet the Ace, King or missed flush draw on the river as, obviously,  you have so strongly represented the King yourself.

Playing the flop the way he has is so often, psychologically, the path of least resistance: the check-raise on the flop is so  horrible for say AJ and as such there is this anticipatory dread of calling down the King on future streets or being bluffed off the hand. So a re-raise gets the answer to the 'King question' quickly (or so it feels) and or some pot control back. The surprise re-raise back again is a bit of a sickener to villain, who now just hopes it is a move and calls one last time no shut the pot down (when holding AJ).

I would also say that if we suspect that villain would not raise back with an Ace on the flop then it is questionable as to whether there should be a re-raise back again with such a weak King. I suspect the instinct was on the flop that he had an overplayed Ace - hence the re-raise with the King.

In addition, busted flush and King gets checked down a lot even though shoving is a good and gutsy play.