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kingkong's picture
3Bets in Super Turbos

3Bets in Super Turbos I read the thread about the NBC hand of Seidel/Moneymaker and a possible 3bet. I wasn’t sure, where to post my questions  about 3betting in super turbos/endgame situations with 20-25bb. Because it’s theory I decided to open a new thread. Questions are to Mers and everybody in the forum: 1.       Are TT-AA, KJs, KQ, (AJ-AK) a good range for a 3bet/call after a minraise (Let’s assume the opponents minraises about 50% from the button and has no 3x range) at first blind level 25bb deep? 2.       Which hands for 3bet/call could and should I add against a player who minraises for example 80%. 3.       Which hands could I 3bet/fold or should I avoid these play, because it really hurts to fold, when I only need about 40% equity after a 4bet shove 4.       My experience with AJ-AK is not really good. If I hit, the opponent folds, especially if I hit my Ace. So sometimes I just shove these hands, which seems better because I am called a lot by weaker Aces. I try to decide depending on the opponent tendencies, but often there a played too less hands. What’s your experience? What is standard? 5.       Especially with AK, AQ and maybe KQ: If I have only two overcards on the flop, should I conti bet without reads?  If so, I think I am committed and have nearly the outs to call an allin raise especially if my opponent could have a draw. Because I want to avoid this I often check instead of a conti betting.6.  @Mers: You wrote somewhere, that you prefer a raise to 120 instead of 100. Could you explain why?A lot of questions, I know. But I’m patient and we can discuss it step by step

mersenneary's picture
"1.       Are TT-AA, KJs, KQ,

"1.       Are TT-AA, KJs, KQ, (AJ-AK) a good range for a 3bet/call after a minraise (Let’s assume the opponents minraises about 50% from the button and has no 3x range) at first blind level 25bb deep?"Personally, I think against most players simply jamming A8-AK has the best equity. When you 3-bet, you give a lot of speculative hands a chance to correctly call and play in position against you with a stack size that's pretty easy to deal with. This is actually less of a problem with a hand like KJs - you'll get credit for the ace a lot, and be dominating a lot of your opponent's calling range, and also have more equity when your opponent flops top pair (compare your equity with KJ and AK when you're up against T8 on a T97 flop, for example). I think TT-AA, KQ, KJ depending on stack depths, and some 95s type bluff hands work best as a non-allin 3betting range, with A8-AK and 22-99 (with some junk when appropriate) better for a 3bet all-in range.

mersenneary's picture
"2.       Which hands for

"2.       Which hands for 3bet/call could and should I add against a player who minraises for example 80%."The more your opponent minraises, the more hands like KJ/KT/QJ/K9s/QTs become 3bet/calling hands (expand your value range), and the more hands like 95s/J6s/96o etc become great hands to 3bet/fold (hands that flop OK enough but are borderline calls or folds if we're not raising). While your 3bet/calling range does change a bit, your biggest adjustments are your 3bet jamming range (A8+ can become A2+, jam becomes the best option with a lot of weaker hands) and your 3bet/folding range.

mersenneary's picture
"3.       Which hands could I

"3.       Which hands could I 3bet/fold or should I avoid these play, because it really hurts to fold, when I only need about 40% equity after a 4bet shove"Answered above for the most part, mostly hands that are bluff hands that are taking advantage of a wide opening range and a tight continuing range to 3bets. Remember that your comparision is always to the next best option, so when deciding whether or not to 3bet bluff with T8, you have to think abotu what your equity from flatting would be. That's why in general, it's best to keep those hands in your flatting range, and develop a polarized 3betting range with your big hands and your more marginal barely playable stuff that flops OK against an opponent who is opening a wide range and not too loose vs 3bets.

mersenneary's picture
"4.       My experience with

"4.       My experience with AJ-AK is not really good. If I hit, the opponent folds, especially if I hit my Ace. So sometimes I just shove these hands, which seems better because I am called a lot by weaker Aces. I try to decide depending on the opponent tendencies, but often there a played too less hands. What’s your experience? What is standard?"Yeah, as mentioned, I believe in jamming against most opponents. Think of it this way: When T9s calls your 3bet, was it correct to do so? The answer, in general, when you have AJ-AK OOP, is yes, you'd rather T9s fold than call a 3bet in position vs AJ-AK. I also think people stack off way too light, in STs especially, vs 3bet jams early on in the game.

mersenneary's picture
"5.       Especially with AK,

"5.       Especially with AK, AQ and maybe KQ: If I have only two overcards on the flop, should I conti bet without reads?  If so, I think I am committed and have nearly the outs to call an allin raise especially if my opponent could have a draw. Because I want to avoid this I often check instead of a conti betting."This depends a ton on board texture. In general, once there's a 12bb pot and just 18bb behind, it's going to be best to bet/call most flops. For example:9h5h4x on the flop - You have to bet/call here. There are too many draws that will jam over to bet/fold and not enough made hands (there shouldn't be too much 9x/5x in his flatting range, although there will be some). Bet/calling plays tons better vs all his unpaired hands than checking. You could argue for a check raise all in, but I think as a standard, people don't stab with air enough for that to be correct readless.Tx9x7x - Here, we should probably just check/fold. This hammers his flatting range and gives us very poor equity.

mersenneary's picture
"6.  @Mers: You wrote

"6.  @Mers: You wrote somewhere, that you prefer a raise to 120 instead of 100. Could you explain why?"Sure. Basically, we're at a significant disadvantage OOP, and making it 100 makes it even more correct for his 89s type stuff to continue. Most fish don't really do anything differently vs 120 and 100 (many regs don't either), and we want more in preflop to negate positional advantage.Of course, it's worse to do this with our bluff hands. That's why in general, I've really come to like raising to 100 or 95 with our bluff hands and our premium pairs, and 120 with our KQ/KJ bet/calling stuff. Both of those ranges are pretty balanced and optimal with that type of hand (premium pairs are obviously looking for more calls preflop and aren't so afraid of playing OOP with a deepish stack to pot ratio).

ThisWillFitForSure's picture
this is pure gold, im

this is pure gold, im printing it for re-reading it easily :) ty mersdo you advicate developing a limp/calling limp/3bet small, limp/shove range some of the times? when this could be good? any examples on what hands you use into each range and how to use this in adition to minraising, openjamming, etc?

mersenneary's picture
limp/calling ranges are great

limp/calling ranges are great (when a hand flops really well but isn't strong enough to minraise/call against someone who 3bet shoves wide), I only limp/jam or limp/3bet small against rare opponents or against more common opponents with premium pairs <13bb. Limp shove range is best when you're very sure your opponent is raising a high % of limps but not 3betting wide.

kingkong's picture
great answers. ty mers:-)

great answers. ty mers:-)

Andres_A's picture
but what about limp/shoving

but what about limp/shoving 22-44, A2-A5 kind of readless or when  villain has raised our limp before but we can`t be sure he/she is doing it frequently or not but is calling/raising quite much compared to folding on BB facing minraise. Basically I`m asking - can we assume enough fold equity to limp/shove small pairs against quite unknown villains having.

mersenneary's picture
I am pretty strongly in the

I am pretty strongly in the camp that limp/shoving these hands is bad without strong reads. The reason why is that this range is only 56% against a random hand despite the fact that they are get-it-in material, and we let a ton of junk into the pot with great expectation that plays perfectly against our hand range. If you have the read that your opponent will raise limps a big percentage as well as the read that he'll call a lot OOP, it can be good, but against more unknown villains I strongly advise raising because of how much better it does against his junk.

mrbambocha's picture
"9h5h4x on the flop - You

"9h5h4x on the flop - You have to bet/call here."Dont we narrow his range by betting instead of checking and weider his range? "That's why in general, I've really come to like raising to 100 or 95 with our bluff hands and our premium pairs, and 120 with our KQ/KJ bet/calling stuff."How about 95-100 with premium hands and KQ/KJso we have space to fold early on without reads, and 120 with bluffs where we want folds? What do you do if villian 3x instead of 2x? What hand would you call a 3B with if villian 3B to 80/100/120/140/160 (how much does the 3B size matter to your calling range)? What do we do with Ax vs 3B, which ones do we call/fold/jam?

kaiserzozz's picture
very valuable answers, ty

very valuable answers, ty mers!hope the discussion will continue...

mrbambocha's picture
Any updates to this?

Any updates to this?

olistr's picture
mrambocha Q

was mrambocha Q been answered somwhere? or is here any article of difference face 2x and 3x,4x in ST?

hokiegreg's picture
i'll leave this to Mers since

i'll leave this to Mers since this is his thread basically...forward your questions to the Mers-only thread!