So villain opens a hyperturbo @$1000 level with T7o and a min raise.
MrGR33N13 3 bet shoves with A6.
All very standard I hear you say.
But you can work out why I know the starting hands!
I played 125 hyperturbos yesterday @$3.50-15 levels and saw nothing even vaguely close to this level of stupidity.
Could someone please explain what is going on on Pokerstars.
I guess there are fish swimming around @ every level.
This guy happened to be a whale, who was obliging enough to cook and serve himself up.
I see stuff like this at all levels.
People think that all the players are better at every stake, but if you discount regulars (good and bad regs), the fish are often similar (just the higher stakes ones have more money).
I don't understand this type of "rich fish" though. I mean it's ok for a guy to play some $10 tournaments "just for fun", in the evening after work. It's not that much money. But to play $1000 HUs as pure gambling? Or do they think they're good?
I don't know where these guys come from.
However, there are many rich people in the world. And if you have ever been to the casino, there's always rich guys in the high roller areas just feeding slots with $100+ at a time pulls.
So given those two pieces of info, I assume it can be a bit more fun to play hypers for a huge whale than it is to just pull a lever and lose.
It is all a bit odd.
Even "the best" call 3bet all ins for 400+ chips in the first level with hands like Q8s. How is this ever going to be plus ev yet they are making $100,000s from online poker.
The profitability of calling 3b jams depends on your opponent's 3b jamming range.
For example @ 20BB, your opponent 3b jams on you.
There is 3.0 BB in the pot after you min raised.
And he jams for (20 - 1) = 19.0BB
You have to call (20 - 0.5 - 1.5) = 18.0 BB
to buy your equity share of a 40.0 BB pot
You need 18/40 = 45% equity to be indifferent between calling and folding after raising.
If you have > 45% equity, you have better expectation calling than folding.
Against some 3b jamming ranges, it would be a leak to raise-fold Q8s.
For example if a villain is 3b jamming value range of [A7-A2, 77-22]
Q8s has exactly 45% equity against this range.
If you give villain credit for balancing his 3b jamming range (quite conceivable at higher stakes), he's also going to have a whole lot of bluffs against which you have about 60% equity against. So against his entire 3b jamming range you have enough equity to call it off.
You're probably playing a very value-oriented game and assuming everyone is doing the same?
I think you're actually asking if I am a level one thinker. Well I certainly can be in game if I play too much but I'm not when I am posting on this most excellent forum!
From what I can see having watched alot of these high stakes games villains are 3bet jamming this deep with Ax & Kx which is a balanced range if you consider K2, plus most pairs.
And this just isn't a call when the effective stack is 460 @20bb & you have Q8s.
Regardless of what level you're thinking on, when you get 3b jammed on all that really matters is the equity you have vs villain's 3b jamming range compared to the pot odds you are being layed.
Against some 3b jamming ranges, it would be correct to call off with Q8s.
Yes, theoretical 3b jamming ranges.
I suppose the simple question is: have you ever called anyone's 3b jam in a similar situation?
You didn't say anything about the situation where this happened. Lets say you are the one with Q8s, you have been playing a reg a couple of games, and you play loose from SB 85%+ pfr. Villain have started 3b pushing alot. You noticed and decide to tighten up, but then this happens. What do you think villain is pushing with here (I think you will have more than 45% equity)?
I've never raise-called Q8s @ 20BB.
I've never even considered under which conditions it might be correct until now.
But that's my point => if you see a thinking player raise call Q8s you should not default to "what a joke high stakes games don't make sense".
Try reverse engineering the working assumptions that it would make sense and you might find you learn something.
If you go through this process objectively and still think it's a joke, great => you're probably better than that guy at poker and can look forward to taking his money in the future :)
Fair points.
I have also noticed that these high stakes players are more likely to make these outrageous calls when they are the big stack.
I have given this alot of thought and think the reasons for this are:
(i) the small stack is more likely to be aggressive and therefore have a wider shoving range as the pot at stake, while being the same size for both players, is a bigger proportion of the small stack's stack.
(ii) this is actually compounded when winning the pot will mean the small stack will become the big stack and will effectively get an extra life as he will now be able to survive losing a subsequent all-in.
(iii) the current big stack can survive calling and losing this all-in.
(iv) if the big stack does lose this all-in he may well double up in the next few hands as if he picks up a strong hand he is likely to get action due to the facts that he is now considered (a) very loose and (b) to be potentially tilting having lost the big stack position in the game.
I am very interested to hear player's thoughts on this in game "poker psychology" and whether you think it actually affects decision making or whether decisions are purely mathematical and I am just imagining it!
I'm rereading Will Tipton's book, Expert Heads Up No Limit Holdem at the moment.
I thought of this forum post when I was looking at GTO solutions to the preflop minraise-shove game.
In equilibrium, Q8s is a raise-call up to 21.4 BB.
Not sure if you give your credit for playing so close to equilbrium 3b jamming ranges, but if you did, you could understand why Q8s would be a raise-call @ 20BB.
If you're interested, in the GTO solution to this game it can be found here:
http://www.dandbpoker.com/preflop_charts.php
It is just a different kind of life style I guess.
I for example would buy a new world of warcraft account for around 400.- € every couple of month. Just because I want to play a new race, and don't wanna do the boring leveling stuff on my own. I then play it for 2 months and let it die. For me, this is just *fun* and I afford it. For a family running on low on cash, it would be a desaster that would hunt them for years to come!
Hi.
excellent post so far love how cdon describe it wonder what stakes your playing atm cdon you seem to have a good thinking ingame/post game! Also for the rest im agree with cdon when he say if its seem like a joke to you check the situation again from the other sense for the Q8s.
Dont Let Variance Affect You!
I'm currently playing $7 games.