Hi all,My name is Nicolas (Nico), and I'm really looking forward to working with Mers and all of you guys.No specific HHs for now, but given I've opened the thread I'll start out with a couple of general things that are troubling me.1 - Calling openshoves with middling connected cards, J9, J8, T9s, etc. I can't figure out at what stacks I should start calling them, it feels tricky because they're never a favourite vs any shoving range but they have decent equity vs a lot. I feel like I'm folding them way too much.2 - KQ 25bbs deep. (KJ, KTs). What do you do with them first hand of a superturbo, no reads. Flat or 3bet 40 to 100?Cheers!
1. You're right that it's really tricky to have an intuitive sense of this - I actually had the same problem a while back. The NASH calling charts aren't that useful for most hands, but they're actually a very good guideline especially when 7bb or less, and a decent guideline when <10bb. J8o at 7.8bb, for example, is a tad high for what is optimal, but not that far off at all. I'd take a look at those (the one for JTs is way too high). 2. 3bet/call KQ/KJs, flat KJo/KT in general.
could you elaborate further, on why KQ/KJs is a 3bet/call and a 3bet(to 90/100) fold is horrible?i recently had a friend of minea dvise me to 3bet fold KQ/KJs alltho, it is undoubtable, he is a winner at STs, i still thought it was strange, and would be happy if i could tell him why it is bad to 3bet/fold those. and optimal to 3bet/call
Isn't this because he flats a lot worse, so we want to get the big equity edge from him flatting with dominated hands pre, while stacks are shallow enough (and people ship weird enough) that we're priced in to call?idk i'm just working off the celebrity poker mistakes thread further down lol
One of the hands you just love to pick up from the small blind against a player who makes non-allin 3bets a lot is 22. You raise, they 3bet to 100/120, you jam, and it's just so, so delicious when they fold.When they have T7 or something, the fold is correct against your range, but with KQ/KJs, it's not. Even if you put in a pretty tight jamming range that only includes hands we're behind against, like A8o+ A6s+ 22+ KQ, we have 40% equity. After putting 100 chips in the pot 25bb deep (I actually prefer a 3bet to 120 vs most), we have the equity to call it off. If he's shoving any wider than that at all (any weaker aces, and if ever he decides to click a button/think you're bluffing and shove KJ/KT/98ss etc), it becomes a very clear call and a big mistake to "wait for a better spot" and fold.
No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$100 + $2 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBHero450 SBDavis7369550 Effective Stacks: 23bb Blinds 10/20 Pre-Flop (30, 2 players) Hero is BB Davis7369 raises to 40, Hero calls 20 Flop (80, 2 players) Hero checks, Davis7369 bets 40 Final Pot: 120This is the third hand of the match, and first time I've played him. On the first hand he cbet 60 into 80 on Q52 flop, now he's cbetting 40, which would seem weird for a value hand since this flop is wetter. I'm interested in flop action and plan for the hand. I like my equity with the gutshot, overcard and chances my 8 is good too, and I think I can potentially bluff him off, but when? I can call flop then either bluff river depending on turn/river cards if he checks back turn, or maybe check-shove certain turns depending on sizing, would that be spew? I could also check-raise flop but I have to fold to a jam then, and I think he'll jam any value hand on this texture.
i hope you dont have a problem with me trying to comment this but i find that i learn more when i try and put my thoughts into words :)i think in this flop your only mistake is folding but you have more than 2 options here (c/c c/r im assuming u c/shove right?), you can lead 40-60 with the gutshot + 1 (maybe 2) over and the bdfd, barrel any club Jx Tx 8x, maybe even pairing 7x 3x to fold Ax and KJ kind of hands (not so sure about barreling 9x, bc i think he would keep calling pairs and Ax) setting up a river shove if u miss (in this part im confused if we do hit Jx or Tx on river do we still shove? i think so but not sure)
Of course I don't have a problem, I'm actually very greatfull for any comments left here, the more discussion the better!I didn't fold, I just cut the hand there because I'm interested in thoughs on planning the full hand from the flop, I think that's very beneficial. So what's the best way to bluff here?You mention donking out, and actually i think that's a pretty good flop for it, it's something I don't do very much of.What do others think?
I think if we check/raise to t100 we have enough equity to call off a jam. Seeing as we're not really looking to induce any extra jams or flats weaker hands, I think if we check/raise it should be a check/jam.Check/jamming, leading, and check/calling are all going to be very close in expectation in terms of ways to contest this pot. I think I usually check/call, but I'm not going to pretend that's a ton better than the other options, because it probably isn't.
That makes sense. Maybe the question was too wide, but I'm trying to get a grip on what factors I should be considering when trying to decide how to contest different flops OOP.Edit: Will post more hands about it.
Hey Mers (or anyone who cares to give their opinion), maybe you can give me some advice on this.I'm focusing mainly on superturbos right now, beating the 50s very comfortably and the 100s too, those over very small sample. However, I want to get back to putting some volume in on turbos too to make sure I don't forget how to play >25bbs. But I'm finding a couple of issues with doing that:1 - I'm not sure what stakes I should be playing for those. Never had good results >55s, but I think I've improved a lot since the time I played only turbos, and I've got a very healthy roll for 115s. Will take some time to get a good sample to draw conclusions from tho.2 - Don't really know how to mix them into the grind, cause I don't want to cut much time from superturbos either.Advice?
When you first get back into it, I really advise separating STs from turbos - don't play both at the same time. Set aside a couple hours to donk around in turbos and see how you feel. I'd start with a session of the 55s and then put in a session of 110s after you get back into the flow.gl!
Great advice, will do that, thanks!
Been having some good days in 50$ superturbos, feel like I'm really playing well atm. I'm dissapointed on my volume so far this month tho, but I've had a very busy month in off-poker stuff. I'll be putting in some serious commitment on April to get that volume up, and goal should be to get established in the 100s exclusively.Line check: Villain was flatting pretty wide OOP. I think it's best to check back flop because I'll get check-raised off my hand fairly often and have decent equity. On turn I decide to raise the minbet, which he'd been doing fairly often, and I think I can rep a lot if I then shove river. Then on river once he calls turn and then checks, even though I hit a 7, I think it's good to stick to the plan and turn the pair into a bluff.No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$50 + $1 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBHero430 BBAle Liscia570 Effective Stacks: 14bb Blinds 15/30 Pre-Flop (45, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to 60, Ale Liscia calls 30 Flop (120, 2 players) Ale Liscia checks, Hero checks Turn (120, 2 players) Ale Liscia bets 30, Hero raises to 90, Ale Liscia calls 60 River (300, 2 players) Ale Liscia checks, Hero goes all-in 280... Brag hand: On the turn I decided to triple barrel this board, then this happened. Had a sick read that the guy likes to make this nominal raises and even 3bets post-flop as a bluff, also he likes to rep 3-flush boards, and usually just shoves with value hands instead of making this smaller raises. Actually timed down a bit thinking "am I really gonna do this?". Helps to feel good about the times you go with a read and feel like an idiot. No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$50 + $1 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBMrLeroey500 SBHero500 Effective Stacks: 25bb Blinds 10/20 Pre-Flop (30, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to 40, MrLeroey calls 20 Flop (80, 2 players) MrLeroey checks, Hero bets 40, MrLeroey calls 40 Turn (160, 2 players) MrLeroey checks, Hero bets 100, MrLeroey raises to 240, Hero goes all-in 420, MrLeroey folds Final Pot: 820 Hero wins 820 ( won +320 ) MrLeroey lost -320 I'm not sure what type of hands I want to be posting, cause I'm not sure what I should be focusing my work on. I'll be reviewing some games today and will try to pick spots I'm unsure about. Mers: Do you think it would be possible to substitute a bunch of single hands for a full game HH or a 5 minute video of 1 or 2 games once in a while that you might review? I think your responses are being truly excellent to every specific question, but something like that would help identify what we should be working on, then we can go back to posting hands about it.
Hey Mers,Fun game yesterday. I hope you're happy that I let you win (obviously I did), just thought it'd look bad if I beat you :)Anyways, I'm going to post a few hands from the game. Feel like I made some pretty big mistakes, it was the first turbo I played in a long time, and I think I was trying too hard to outplay you in some spots, but oh well... really enjoyed it.Will post the hands separately.
First hand, and one i'm very unsure about. Preflop flatting the 3bet very std I think. Before the flop comes, I'm thinking about what I know about your standard 3bet sizes, and I know that size to be a lot of premium pairs, KQ, KJ type stuff that is both strong and plays well, and then whatever random bluff hands you mix in there (tho I thought you normally use the bigger sizing for your bluff hands, + AK type stuff). When the flop comes, I'm very surprised by your check, because all the KQ-J-T stuff is betting that flop for value, so are premium pairs, etc. Could be a set with QQ that you're trapping with or something like that, but I still think you bet that almost all the time.So what goes through my mind is, you might have one of those bluff hands and decide not to cbet because that flop hits a lot of my 3bet-flatting range, maybe something like JJ that intends to check-call, or maybe you were just reversing your 3bet sizings expecting me to know about them and have something like AK-AJ-AT. So I decided a very small bet should fold out your air, and then if you check-called I might be able to barrel you off your hand. I really don't like the hand I have to do that with, because I have no equity at all, but I figured since a lot of my range hits that board, I might as well bluff with one of the hands that doesn't.So then when you check-call I decide to barrel turn and you fold because you're so bad and i'm a genious :))Anyways, that's the reasoning, but the hand looks so fishy when I look at it, so maybe I was just trying too hard to outplay you. No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$88 + $5 Heads Up Shootout Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBHero1470 BBmersenneary1530 Effective Stacks: 49bb Blinds 15/30 Pre-Flop (45, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to 60, mersenneary raises to 165, Hero calls 105 Flop (330, 2 players) mersenneary checks, Hero bets 120, mersenneary calls 120 Turn (570, 2 players) mersenneary checks, Hero bets 300, mersenneary folds Final Pot: 870 Hero wins 870 ( won +285 ) mersenneary lost -285
Another one:First, I know I know, openshove pre. I'm just not very convinced about openshoving the small pairs so deep even with all your talk about it, I do it at 20bbs and lower, but 21-25 seems too much to me.So I checked back flop because I thought it hits your flatting range very hard at that stack size (though thinking about it now, I know you flat a lot of K5 type stuff too so maybe it's a cbet. Then on the turn I think I have to bet for sure for value / protection. Now on the river, I thought really hard about it, and I'm not sure if you pay me off with ace-high or king-high, but I just think I'm never behind cause you never have a pair, and since I can't rep anything... what do you think of the value bet? Was pretty clueless about the sizing so would like imput on that too.BTW I consumed my timebank in this hand, which I was very unhappy about later. No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$88 + $5 Heads Up Shootout Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBHero1170 BBmersenneary1830 Effective Stacks: 23bb Blinds 25/50 Pre-Flop (75, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to 100, mersenneary calls 50 Flop (200, 2 players) mersenneary checks, Hero checks Turn (200, 2 players) mersenneary checks, Hero bets 100, mersenneary calls 100 River (400, 2 players) mersenneary checks, Hero bets 200, mersenneary folds Final Pot: 600 Hero wins 600 ( won +200 ) mersenneary lost -200Edit: For all the above reasoning, maybe a pot bet was correct on river?
Next hand:Everything std until river. I really dislike my river bet, because after check-calling the flop I should have no air in my range, so I have no bluffs, and I'm not betting pairs for value, so it's such a transparent bet. Was thinking about it and almost timed down, so I made a stupid bet I think. I don't know how often you're bluffing if I check, but that might have been a good option. I could also have bet small, trying to look like a blocking bet that you might call with 2 pairs and such or bluff-raise. What do you think? No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$88 + $5 Heads Up Shootout Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBHero1470 SBmersenneary1530 Effective Stacks: 29bb Blinds 25/50 Pre-Flop (75, 2 players) Hero is BB mersenneary raises to 100, Hero calls 50 Flop (200, 2 players) Hero checks, mersenneary bets 100, Hero calls 100 Turn (400, 2 players) Hero checks, mersenneary checks River (400, 2 players) Hero bets 300, mersenneary folds Final Pot: 700 Hero wins 700 ( won +200 ) mersenneary lost -200
On this one I timed out while deciding whether to bluff river or not. And I'm still unsure about it. On flop I was either check-calling or check-raising depending on sizing. Turn stab is fairly normal I think, then on river I just don't know if I can rep anything, your hand looks a lot like ace-high and I have no idea if you're folding it. No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$88 + $5 Heads Up Shootout Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBHero1730 SBmersenneary1270 Effective Stacks: 21bb Blinds 30/60 Pre-Flop (90, 2 players) Hero is BB mersenneary raises to 120, Hero calls 60 Flop (240, 2 players) Hero checks, mersenneary checks Turn (240, 2 players) Hero bets 120, mersenneary calls 120 River (480, 2 players) Hero checks, mersenneary checks Final Pot: 480 Hero shows mersenneary shows a pair of Eights mersenneary wins 480 ( won +240 ) Hero lost -240
Another one:It was very tempting to check back flop because it's so hard for you to call with worse, + there's not many cards I'm not going to like on future streets. I would have checked vs a lot of people, but thought it'd just be so transparent vs you. Then on river... I think you almost always check-raise Kx on flop, but you do have a ton of Qx and all of that beats me. Still I think you have enough missed draws that I have to call, agree? No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$88 + $5 Heads Up Shootout Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBHero1760 BBmersenneary1240 Effective Stacks: 21bb Blinds 30/60 Pre-Flop (90, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to 120, mersenneary calls 60 Flop (240, 2 players) mersenneary checks, Hero bets 120, mersenneary calls 120 Turn (480, 2 players) mersenneary checks, Hero checks River (480, 2 players) mersenneary bets 250, Hero calls 250 Final Pot: 980 Hero shows mersenneary shows a pair of Queens mersenneary wins 980 ( won +490 ) Hero lost -490
And last hand, the final one:On this one I timed down trying to decide too. Your sizing has to be very polarising, and i do think you're capable of doing that as a bluff... however I just can't think of anything that you might have limped that neither was already a monster preflop or hit that flop. So I don't know... ended up basing the rushed decision in that I have more that 40% equity vs something as strong as AT (which you never have of course, but just a strong hand), so if you're ever ever folding to my shove the tiniest % then it's correct. What do you think? No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$88 + $5 Heads Up Shootout Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBHero980 SBmersenneary2020 Effective Stacks: 10bb Blinds 50/100 Pre-Flop (150, 2 players) Hero is BB mersenneary calls 50, Hero checks Flop (200, 2 players) Hero checks, mersenneary bets 250, Hero goes all-in 880, mersenneary calls 630 Turn (1960, 2 players, 1 all-in) River (1960, 2 players, 1 all-in) Final Pot: 1960 Hero shows a pair of Jacks mersenneary shows a pair of Kings mersenneary wins 1960 ( won +980 ) Hero lost -980
I know that was a ton of hands, but I hadn't posted much at all lately. In adittion to that, if you picked up on anything I did during the game (and you remember it) that you think is worth commenting, It'd be apreciated.Cheers!
97 hand: I gave you a lot of credit here (had KT!) so I love the play is especially if you thought that I would treat you as too nitty not wanting to spew off too much of your stack (which was what I guessed - don't take offense to that either!) :) This is a good example of taking advantage of a nitty image as per the riyyc thread.It's a flop I'm going to be betting with all of my strong hands because of how drawy it is, in general, once I check you have to know my range is fairly weak. The turn is just an awful card for me compared to our ranges - I'd definitely bet my flush draws on the flop, and the few fds I might check with (the bigger ones) I'd probably check/raise the flop. You very easily can have a flush draw on the flop.I also think this is a great example of using a flop sizing that really doesn't look like a bluff in order to bluff later in the hand.For what it's worth, though, I am going to be betting this flop with all of my bluff hands, for sure. There's just too much in your range that's folding to a c-bet for that to be a bad idea. But I think you're correct that once I check it's a lot of marginal showdown value type hands that you can fold out. Perhaps not on the flop (I think pretty much all of my flop checking range is calling that size bet, for what it's worth), but definitely later in the hand. Drawy boards in 3bet pots are really difficult to have a balanced checking range and still get max value when you have hands.
Let me be clear about the 33: I think it's totally fine just to minraise, and that's going to have very similar expectation to just openshoving.I had ace high here on the river and folded pretty easily, I still don't think you take THAT long to bet at the buzzer with a bluff very often (although I think you did time down bluff in this game a decent bit). I think the v-bet is correct, you're right that I have very little better hands in my range (some 6x perhaps, no better pocket pairs which helps you) and a decent amount of Ax/Kx. I don't think bigger would have made me think about calling anymore, because you can rep middle pair checked back as well.no-cbet is fine imo.
With the Q9, I think your analysis in the hand is 100% spot on - well thought out. A smaller bet or a check works better for exactly the reasons you mention. I'm literally never calling this bet with worse because you rep no air at all.
The QT is just a guessing game if I'm folding Ace high or not, in equilibrium it's actually correct for me to fold sometimes and call sometimes and you to bluff sometimes and not bluff sometimes. It's very obvious the game that we're playing and I think either is fine. Given the credit I was giving you in the match though, I think I would have bet if I were you, and probably on the bigger side.
Your call with Q5 is perfectly fine, you would have to think I rarely bluff my missed draws for it to be incorrect. The big point I want to make in this hand is that it's far better for me to bet my Q9 against you than it is to c/c the river.
I think the play with J3 is definitely, definitely wrong. Yes, you have 40% against AT, but you also have 16% against a hand like JT (although that would be a sillier hand to make this sizing with). If I have kings you have 32%, queens gives you just 22%.Privately, the truth of the matter is that I'm just never bluffing here - given how many draws there are, bet/folding is just gets you destroyed by a ton of hands. I think you levelled yourself into "he's so good he can have anything here", when really I'm just playing my hand the way it is for max value. I really struggle to see how doing this with a bluff hand or 6x or something is better with those hands than just minbetting or whatever.
Thanks for all the -as always- great comments Mers. They gave me a ton of insight, and also helps my confidence a lot to see that my analysis is good in most of the hands.A couple of things I'd like to comment on:About the 33 preflop: This is something that I've been thinking about for a while after watching and rewatching your vids. Openshoving it 20-25bbs deep is clearly +EV, but I've also heard talk about it as being unexploitable, which it clearly isn't. I swear to god, if I play a superturbo vs you and you openshove first hand, I'm folding AKo and calling 97s (maybe not now that I've told you... I'd probably still call the 97s but wouldn't fold the AK just in case you start openshoving 72o :)), and I think it's 100% correct, because I know for a fact it's the only thing you're ever openshoving at that stack depth, so your cards are face up. Given that, are you still doing this vs regs, who are likely to have watched your vids and know about this? Do you still think it's optimal vs anyone, have you encountered this problem vs anyone?About the timing of actions: I had a hard time with it on this game because I hadn't played turbos in a while + I was playing YOU and all that. However, I do like taking some standard, not super fast time for non-trivial decisions, regardless of them being bluffs or vbets. I tried a 2-3 seconds standard timing for EVERY decision strategy vs 2 good/known regs in an 88$ 4 man some time ago and I absolutely destroyed them (in the final the guy ended up sucking out on me twice, one JT>AA and then both insulting me on chat, lol) What do you think about this? "Play as fast as you can as long as you're making correct decisions" is the best way?Long shot, but would this game help you giving me an idea of where you think I might stand in terms of buyin level for turbos? (of course this can only be determined by a good sample size of results, but as we talked before I'm thinking about getting back to them and have no idea where I stand).Lastly, there's a post right before the ones about our game that you probably missed. A bit of rambling on it, but I'd like your opinion on the hand I present as "linecheck". Again, thanks for the great coaching Mers, I'm very happy with the program, and I'm sure it will keep improving with experience + feedback.P.D: You're right that I was expecting you to see my as nitty! You've been repeating so many times how nitty 100$ regs are in your last vids, you're gonna have to be careful with people who've watched them :)
I've never ever been snapped off by a good player with T9s. I'll just put it that way. The theory is nice, but theory should always lead to results.I don't think the timing really matters beyond whatever you feel comfortable with. I tend to take a beat for most postflop decisions but even that might be superstitious.I don't think you can tell that much from just one match, but I think you largely played quite well. What I'm most impressed with is your thought process and your willingness to learn and pick up on new things. That will serve you very well.The A7 bluff seems reasonable to me.
Hi everyone,Just bumping this thread to start off May discussion.I'm currently a 100$ ST reg, sn "BETTERWAYS" on FTP.Last month I didn't post a ton of stuff in this thread and got most of my value from reading other people's threads. I plan on posting a lot more here this month. Also, I had some doubts last month of whether I wanted to get back to playing some turbos, but this month this will be ST stuff exclusively.Looking forward to working with all of you!
I've decided that what I'm going to do is choose specific topics periodically and do some through discussion about them. I'll be throwing in some lone hands here and there too, but in general I think this will help me get more and better discussion going, and I thin working on one topic at a time is beneficial.First topic I want to talk about is contesting OOP in limped pots. I think I told you in our sweat session Mers, I'm almost always checking every flop, and then I do bet a lot of turns when villain checks flop. I want to explore having a flop donking range and also fine tune turn and river ranges.So what I'm gonna do for this one is throw a monster post out there with a lot of stuff and then hopefully we can discuss specific points on shorter ones. I'll structure this by factors that should be considered while building those ranges:First and easiest, hands to do it with:Mostly hands withough sd value, and preferrably but not exclusively with some form of equity. Correct? Hands I have some trouble dealing with are very weak sd value ones, like say Q-high.Opponent types:Firstly, would you agree that fish are better candidates to donk flop rather than turn, at least on dry flops? I figure fish are a lot more likely to just fold to 1 flop bet when they miss. Good players can do all kinds of stuff to you and I think it can get you in pretty tough spots, specially because even in STs there'll usually be room for 3 streets of play on limped pots, and so position is huge. On the other hand, good players are probably going to stab a super high % IP on flop (I probably bet close to 100% unless played back at a lot), so that takes away a good bit of the turn betting option. Still, that might be more of a reason for check-raising rather than donking right?On to specific tendencies: People who check back flop a lot are usually good candidates for donking flop. However it's also easy to let the flop check through and bluff turn, which do you prefer? Probably pretty close in EV, but maybe donking flop is better since you'll want to donk it for value also?People who stab every flop should be good candidates for check-raising or floating, though I think floating doesn't work so well on limped pots because people barrel more (probably cause the big % of stack a second barrel requires on raised pots isn't so big here). What kind of hands / textures would you be looking for check-raising ranges?Preflop ranges are of course important. Vs people who are just limping their trash and minraising the rest we should contest a ton, and especially on any board that's not super low right? On the other hand these people are great candidates for raising a ton pre when they limp. Against you Mers, with a limping range consisting presumably of a lot of middle stuff, how would you go about contesting? Very dry flops like K53 and very low ones like 542 would be good here maybe? And how would you choose to contest? Then lastly, people who limp most of their range... they should have a ton of air on a lot of flops, but also have some very strong hands in their ranges, how do you factor that in your contesting plans?What other tendencies are you looking for that might be relevant to the topic?Board texture:Dry flops (Q63, 944): Hardest for villain to have a hand with, hardest for you to rep anything. I assume these are good to just stab relentlessly against fish, and then try to have a reasonable contesting frequency vs good players? How do you feel about flop vs turn leading on these? And later streets barreling?High card flops like either AKJ type or AQ3: Hard for both to hit too, at least if villain is limping weak or middling stuff. But we do have some K5 type stuff in our range, some low Ax too if we're 15+ bbs effec. How frequently do you contest these? The AKJ one might be a decent one to float since I don't think people will barrel it too much, not so with the AQ3 where they can put you on 3x easily.Middle / connected flops (JT8, a bit less radical J86 and a lot less T83): Connect very well with a lot of limping ranges. Decent for betting turn + river vs some people when they check flop? Are you contesting much on these otherways? (depents on villain preflop range obv)Very low flops (532, 652): These should be pretty good to lead flop shouldn't they? Vs people who might float you with like a JT maybe lead flop big and then bet big on turn again depending on card obv?Bet sizing:I told you I'm usually just always betting 30 into 40 or 40 into 60 except on spots where I want to rep specific stuff that calls for different sizings, but you said this is probably unncessary balancing and I can see why. If I'm forced to pick a standard size I do like those, cause I think betting bigger OOP makes good sense, agree? Now:In what kind of spots do you think minbetting is better? I figure vs people who'll play fit or fold regardless of sizing?What do you think of betting big, like full pot or even overbetting in certain textures. Say flop comes 542 and I bet 50 into 40, you think that's a decent option vs a middling limping range?Continuing on later streets:I won't try to break this down point by point, but if there's anything you want to comment, maybe stuff that goes together with factors listed below, that'd be great.
Also cool thing about this is I can now focus on saving interesting hands to post for this specific topic, which will be a lot easier for me since I'm such a fish at saving hands for later discussion :)
good post! i am thinking about it aswell.
I just having trouble in the same situation. Tried a lot of different strategy, but didn't find the perfect one, especially against good regs. Sometimes I feel I play quite week in these situations.
Stabbing OOP in limped pots..."Mostly hands without sd value, and preferrably but not exclusively with some form of equity. Correct?"Yes, in general, when we're doing it for bluff. It also can be correct to lead bottom/middle pair or even big hands against opponents who are way too passive."Firstly, would you agree that fish are better candidates to donk flop rather than turn, at least on dry flops? I figure fish are a lot more likely to just fold to 1 flop bet when they miss. Good players can do all kinds of stuff to you and I think it can get you in pretty tough spots, specially because even in STs there'll usually be room for 3 streets of play on limped pots, and so position is huge. On the other hand, good players are probably going to stab a super high % IP on flop (I probably bet close to 100% unless played back at a lot), so that takes away a good bit of the turn betting option. Still, that might be more of a reason for check-raising rather than donking right?"It's hard to make a generalization, because many regs are so rigid in only playing for value and don't fall into the trap of being too loose ever, so they're the perfect people to bluff like this against. Fish also float with ATC more on certain boards. I think it's somewhat equivalent for bad regs and fish but much worse against good regs.
"On to specific tendencies: People who check back flop a lot are usually good candidates for donking flop. However it's also easy to let the flop check through and bluff turn, which do you prefer? Probably pretty close in EV, but maybe donking flop is better since you'll want to donk it for value also?"This depends a lot on whether they are betting middle/bottom pair on the flop and how much of their air. Against people who check back a lot of bottom/middle pair/king high but still bet most of their air it's not a great recipe to watch the flop get checked through and bet the turn. Stabbing flop is better. But against people who bet most pieces of the flop but fail at c-betting with their air checking it through and stabbing turn is better.
"People who stab every flop should be good candidates for check-raising or floating, though I think floating doesn't work so well on limped pots because people barrel more (probably cause the big % of stack a second barrel requires on raised pots isn't so big here). What kind of hands / textures would you be looking for check-raising ranges?"Yeah, if they stab with all their air and play fit/fold after that, c/r is generally going to be best. I try to look for hands with some equity vs middle/bottom pair, boards where it's hard for him to have a piece, and it's even better if we actually rep something :) I generally shut down a lot when called vs most player types on most textures.
"Preflop ranges are of course important. Vs people who are just limping their trash and minraising the rest we should contest a ton, and especially on any board that's not super low right? On the other hand these people are great candidates for raising a ton pre when they limp. Against you Mers, with a limping range consisting presumably of a lot of middle stuff, how would you go about contesting? Very dry flops like K53 and very low ones like 542 would be good here maybe? And how would you choose to contest? Then lastly, people who limp most of their range... they should have a ton of air on a lot of flops, but also have some very strong hands in their ranges, how do you factor that in your contesting plans?"Agreed with bold for sure. K53 is a great board to contest against my limping range, the low ones too, I'm stabbing those boards with 100% of my range and most of my range misses it.Against people who limp stronger hands too it's just much more important to be more careful and know to shut down in a lot of situations.
c-betting range is still going to be the biggest deterimant of whether to c/r, just like we talked about in that article, and it's also the most important thing in deciding to donk. Really hone in on how he's playing limped pots. If you ever see him check down air in position that's absolutely golden information.
"Dry flops (Q63, 944): Hardest for villain to have a hand with, hardest for you to rep anything. I assume these are good to just stab relentlessly against fish, and then try to have a reasonable contesting frequency vs good players? How do you feel about flop vs turn leading on these? And later streets barreling?"Yeah, these are great flops to lead. There are opps I will barrel against and opps I won't, I'm more likely to barrel the Q63 though (especially on JT98 turns). "High card flops like either AKJ type or AQ3: Hard for both to hit too, at least if villain is limping weak or middling stuff. But we do have some K5 type stuff in our range, some low Ax too if we're 15+ bbs effec. How frequently do you contest these? The AKJ one might be a decent one to float since I don't think people will barrel it too much, not so with the AQ3 where they can put you on 3x easily."I'm much happier leading the AQ3 because we have more equity vs bottom pair and it's less connected with fewer gutshots to continue. "Middle / connected flops (JT8, a bit less radical J86 and a lot less T83): Connect very well with a lot of limping ranges. Decent for betting turn + river vs some people when they check flop? Are you contesting much on these otherways? (depents on villain preflop range obv)"T83 I need some equity to stab with (like 96), I'm rarely stabbing JT8 but you're right that they can be good to fire at on turn if flop is checked through vs people who will bet any piece. I'm least likely to contest these types of flops without much additional equity though. "Very low flops (532, 652): These should be pretty good to lead flop shouldn't they? Vs people who might float you with like a JT maybe lead flop big and then bet big on turn again depending on card obv?"Decent to bet yeah just definitely be prepared to barrel more turns because I expect a 3/4 flop bet to get called much more than on other textures.
"I told you I'm usually just always betting 30 into 40 or 40 into 60 except on spots where I want to rep specific stuff that calls for different sizings, but you said this is probably unncessary balancing and I can see why. If I'm forced to pick a standard size I do like those, cause I think betting bigger OOP makes good sense, agree? Now: In what kind of spots do you think minbetting is better? I figure vs people who'll play fit or fold regardless of sizing? What do you think of betting big, like full pot or even overbetting in certain textures. Say flop comes 542 and I bet 50 into 40, you think that's a decent option vs a middling limping range?"My standard sizing is generally 2/3-3/4 as well, you want to bet enough to discourage random ATC calls but not so much that it takes away from the math that you don't have to get that many folds. 50 into 40 on that board is creative but I suspect it doesn't have an advantage against 30 or 40. I definitely think half pot is not enough on those boards though.Minbetting can be really good with bottom pair because it accomplishes everything you're trying to accomplish.I'm trying to think of spots where I bluff bet as minbet in these spots and there aren't too many.
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All of those were very valuable answers, and I don't really have any questions about them :) good job.Still on limped pots, I'd like to discuss a bit the situation when opp checks back flop, I stab turn with no sd value and he calls. What factors are you considering when deciding whether to stab river again or just give up?My thinking is most important factor is his cbetting tendencies, because it'll determine the kind of hand range he'll have when he checks back flop. if he has a range against which we don't think stabbing river again is a good option, then likely the turn stab could be a mistake too?So say, on a dry flop where we expect villain to cbet most of his air on flop, when he checks back flop, we should usually just check turn and give up with our air right? As an alternative, what do you think of betting turn and then betting full pot or ovebetting river to get him off a marginal hand?On drawy boards, I usually like stabbing turn and then if river is a blank just betting smallish (50-60%) so that I can stil rep thin value hands, since I'm just trying to fold out his air / missed draws.The situation I have more doubts in is vs villains who just check back a ton of flops with many different hands. Mostly I just feel silly when I stab turn on T35 3 with 8-high and then give up on river because I can't see what he's folding and he wins with K-high. But he can also be checking back top pair sometimes. I have some trouble trying to describe a general strategy for this case, could you shed some light into it? Also as we discussed earlier, maybe this situation should just be avoided often because this is the kind of villain against which we want to have our stabbing range on the flop a lot?
BTW this is being a bad month for me to post a lot and participate much in the forum cause I have exams coming up and just not much free time. It kind of sucks, but I still think i'm getting a lot of value just by reading other people's threads and our skype interactions.
Many opps will check back their Ax/Kx/Qx in limped pots, and you should be pretty familiar with the dynamics of "do I bet the turn" from raised pots. When you have T9s and the flop is 552, gets checked through, and the turn is a 2, it's generally a pretty bad idea to try to bluff out your opps. But if the board is Q75hh and the turn is a Jx that's a turn you definitely have to stab at. It all comes back to how the hands in his range compare to the hands that you can have.Overbetting as a bluff isn't something I do readless very often other than in obvious "push off chop" situations." The situation I have more doubts in is vs villains who just check back a ton of flops with many different hands. Mostly I just feel silly when I stab turn on T35 3 with 8-high and then give up on river because I can't see what he's folding and he wins with K-high."So yeah, this might be a board that's better to lead flop+turn than turn+river if your opponent mostly has weak made hands in his checking behind range, as you'd really expect him to c-bet all of his air.
I want to do some work on building alternative styles and exploring how they might match up vs villain styles.Before i take the calculator out and start fooling around:If you wanted to build some hyper aggro preflop ranges, namely 3betting a super high frecuency, how would you go about it? I'm looking for different possible ranges for 3betting 40 to 90-100, 40 to 110-120, and 3bet-shoving. So, which range would you polarize more, on which would you but the more medium, thin value stuff? What would you absolutely not take out of flatting range? etc
It's a good question, one I've actually been thinking a decent bit about recently.I wouldn't 3bet much to 110-120 if you're looking to 3bet a ton because you want to give a good price to your bluff hands. You can do stuff like putting your strongest and weakest hands in your 100 range, but even then, it's somewhat clear to pick up on the fact that your bluff hands are in your 100 range (and suboptimal to put them in the 120 range).Still, though, the 90-100 range should be most polarized if you're going to to do that, but you can also just throw everything into a t90 or t100 range and everything works out OK.
Was just rewatching your statistical analysis series...What are your SB and BB bb/hand numbers in superturbos only?
Here's my EV bb/100 from HEMFrom the big blind 0-25bb deep: +3bb/100SB 0-25bb: +7bb/100BB 15-25bb: +3bb/100SB 15-25bb: +9bb/100BB 0-15bb: +3bb/100SB 0-15bb: +4bb/100
Double post.
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