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cdon3822's picture
Play vs NAI c/r to size that looks inducing w top pair on wet board?

My thought process:

J9s in position @ 23BB, great hand in position => min raise, prepared to call small NAI 3b but will fold to 3b jam

Flop comes JT7 tt => hit top pair and there are plenty of draws in villain's OOP flatting range that can give me action here, great :)

I cbet to charge draws and get c/r very small sizing.

These small sizings are usually hands that want action (2pair +) or bluffs that just wanted to take a cheap shot at taking down the pot on a board which a perceived OOP flatting range would have hit hard. We can also see c/r top pair and lots of draws that may or may not be c/r and then calling a jam. 

My Jx is good vs villain's draws but pretty dead vs his stronger holdings, other than a small amount of equity from my BD FD. 

When I played the hand, I jammed => thinking I want to get all in now vs his draws and I have blockers to parts of his range which beat me.

 

I think I might have overplayed my hand vs a c/r range on this board to this sizing?

 

No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players

$6.85+$0.15

Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter

SB Hero 450  
BB ooo0000 550  

Effective Stacks: 23bb

Blinds 10/20

Pre-Flop (30, 2 players)

Hero is SB

sJs9

Hero raises to 40, ooo0000 calls 20

Flop (80, 2 players)

sThJh7

ooo0000 checks, Hero bets 40, ooo0000 raises to 80, Hero goes all-in 410, ooo0000 calls 330

Turn (900, 2 players, 1 all-in)

c5

River (900, 2 players, 1 all-in)

sK

Final Pot: 900

Hero shows a pair of Jacks

sJs9

ooo0000 shows two pair, Jacks and Tens

dTcJ

ooo0000 wins 900 ( won +450 )

Hero lost -450

Dipl.Komp.'s picture
yes, i agree. a min

yes, i agree. a min checkraise is hardly ever a semibluff, but a strong value hand or a cheap bluff with air, therefore your push doesn´t make sense. another possible problem i see is that your kicker is not that great. i´d be happier to get it in with AJ or KJ, but J9 really is a bit borderline, considering the fact that many players are not 3betting hands like KJ and QJ, plus your 2pair outs make 4 to a straight, which is another thing you shouldn´t like. i really am a little undecided here. what do you think about checking back and taking a look at the turn card first?

cdon3822's picture
My jam is definitely a

My jam is definitely a mistake => he only calls with hands that have me crushed, or that I am flipping against. The times he does fold (if ever here), I'm not folding out enough equity that it makes up for the times that I get snapped off as a significant dog. 
=> Against his typical range in this spot, I'm not loving my hand against his c/r range. 
 
But I guess I posted it here, because against villain's actual hand, flatting is not really even good. 
Against his actual hand, it is a clear fold (I'm drawing almost dead). 
=> So I wanted to understand how to think about his entire range here
 
So if I consider my options when checked to on the flop and the way the hand can play out: 
1. hero cbet
1.1 villain folds => villain will usually fold his air to a cbet here but his OOP flatting range @ 23BB usually has hit this board in some way
1.2 villain calls => c/c range is probably Tx, 7x + some gutshots
1.3 villain c/r jams => c/r jam range probably heavily weighted to Jx that prefers to get it in now rather than risk being outdrawn, with a 9 kicker, as DiplKomp correctly points out I'm probably not in great shape vs the Jx in villain's OOP flatting range @ 23BB
1.3.1 villain c/r jams and hero folds
1.3.2 villain c/r jams and hero calls
1.4 villain c/r NAI => as noted in original post, we generally feel the value part of this range (particularly to the small size) is VERY strong => weighted to 2pair or better type holdings. He can somtimes have bluffs, which he will probably give up on the turn unimproved on such a wet board so we can consider flatting. But jamming will likely lead to a poor outcome => he will call when he is WAY AHEAD and simply fold an insignificant equity share when he is not
1.4.1  villain c/r NAI and hero folds
1.4.2  villain c/r NAI and hero calls
1.4.3  villain c/r NAI and hero jams
2. hero checks back => checking back protects us from betting into a potentially strong hand but risks giving a free card to the part of his range which has highly dynamic equity share on many turn cards (eg. gutshot type holdings) 
2.1 villain checks turn => if villain checks to us on the turn after we check back the flop, we would feel more comfortable betting our top pair for value
2.1.2 villain checks turn and hero checks back
2.1.3 villain checks turn and hero bets
2.2 villain leads out => we can't neccessarily narrow villain's range here because we checked back the flop. He could be leading just because he perceives our flop check back as weak. Bet sizing will be key here, larger bets such as full pot tend to be value hands which are trying to make up for missed value when they didn't get to c/r the flop. We can certainly call smaller sizings for one street with our top pair and will be able to play the river with the advantage of position. 
2.2.1 villain leads out and hero folds
2.2.2 villain leads out and hero calls
2.2.3 villain leads out and hero raises
2.2.4 villain leads out and hero jams
 
To be honest I wouldn't have even considered checking back top pair on such a wet board. 
Maybe it could be good if villain is quite passive and won't lead turn and barrel us off the best hand too often. 
Additionally, if villain has reliable bet sizing tells, we will be able to play the turn and river quite well vs his range. 
I'm not sure villain has enough super strong hands here that we should neccessarily be worried about betting into a strong made hand.
He will still be folding his air a lot of the time to a cbet and will c/c with a lot of hands we are ahead of. 
 
We could probably profitably cbet and fold to c/r to this sizing here, knowing that it is more often than not indicative of a strong value hand. 
And we are not really giving villain credit for being able to make the adjustment that we will be incredibly exploitable in this spot (ie. we don't think he will start making small NAI c/r to exploit how tight we will be playing vs them). 
But it does feel gross to fold to this size c/r with top pair :(

cdon3822's picture
Similar hand

Played a hand which reminded me of this one.
Bit different because I decide to flat IP and improve to trips on turn. 
But still pretty much drawing dead. 
I think this hand was just a cooler but if anyone disagrees please let me know.
 
No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players
$6.85+$0.15
Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter

SB
Hero
530
 

BB
killa5s
470
 

Effective Stacks: 24bb
Blinds 10/20
Pre-Flop (30, 2 players)
Hero is SB

Hero raises to 40, killa5s calls 20

Flop (80, 2 players)

killa5s checks, Hero bets 40, killa5s raises to 100, Hero calls 60

Turn (280, 2 players)

killa5s bets 100, Hero calls 100

River (480, 2 players)

killa5s goes all-in 230, Hero calls 230

Final Pot: 940
Hero shows three of a kind, Tens

killa5s shows a full house, Tens full of Fours

killa5s wins 940 ( won +470 )
Hero lost -470

laurents's picture
solid

Looks good. You have top pair, he raises with maybe a draw, top pair, second pair or two pair. Anyway you just call and see what happens on the turnwhich which seems solid. You have toppair and a possible draw after the turn. After hitting a set on the turn its a done deal.

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