Here's what I have written down for an eventual HUSNG.com article so far:
Timing Tells in HUSNGs
by mersenneary
In many of my articles, I argue that most players spend too much of their study time contemplating the “sexy” aspects of poker, whether complicated lines in unusual spots or sick soulread tells that only true masters can spot, and not enough time on the basics. However, that doesn't mean that some of these more cool aspects of HUSNG aren't completely unworthy of studying. Timing tells are a good example of reads that won't turn you into a winning player from a losing player, but incorporating them well into your game will improve your winrate.
When talking about timing tells, it's important to start by understanding that these tells happen for a reason. It's not some mystical list of spots to memorize – you get information because of what the time of the decision suggests about how long they needed to think, and what your opponent wants to represent about the strength of his hand. From that framework, we can come up with some general rules about common situations:
-
Quicker calls generally indicate weaker hands that are not considering raising or folding, and are not trapping.
A couple things here. First of all, the basic live poker tell of “strong is weak, weak is strong” applies. Correctly or incorrectly, most players believe that waiting to call with marginal hands makes it seem like they were considering folding, and will cause opponents to put more pressure on them in future streets. Thus, they call more quickly, as if to say “don't try to bluff me on future streets, I have a hand that doesn't need to think twice about calling”. With trapping hands, most players will Hollywood a bit before calling, even online, as if to act like they were considering folding.
The second part of it is that when people have strong hands they might consider raising with, they'll typically do just that – consider raising. On a K74 flop, then, a quick check/call is much more likely to be a 7x or 4x type hand than a K8 type holding. In a 3-bet pot, when your opponent quickly calls a c-bet on a Q95cc flop, it means they didn't consider raising, which makes Qx much less likely (9x is probably the most likely hand in this scenario).
2. When your opponent makes an aggressive move quickly, it means they didn't need to think in order to make it.
After calling a c-bet on a K85cc flop and a turn 4c being checked through, your opponent quickly openjams a Ax river. This will almost always be a turned flush, with our opponent needing no time on the river to calculate that a jam would not be a significant error. Again, there's a reason for this tell – without a hand, people need to think about the river card and whether it's a good idea to make a bluff. It can sometimes be a spazzy move from an opponent who missed a draw, but when there are little to no missed draws in our opponent's range, these spots become very easy folds.
Many opponents, for example, will give up way too much information in their timing from 3bet jamming, snap-shoving Ax/pocket pair type hands that are easy, sure to be +EV jams, and taking some time to think about it before getting it in with more marginal hands that need fold equity to be good. I have also played against opponents who will do the opposite, and always pretend to think with their value hands but want to advertise that they had an easy decision with their bluffs, but this is more unusual. Regardless, once we identify either tendency, we can make money off of it.
3. When your opponent takes his time before making a significant bet in a spot where you are likely to have a bluffcatcher, it means they are generally stronger.
Put yourself in your opponent's shoes. You're on the river with a busted draw, trying to figure out whether to try to bluff – the only way you can win the hand. How often do you use a significant portion of the timebank and then decide to pull the trigger? For most people, the answer is “not often”.
That's because in the mind of most players at that moment, the longer you wait to put the bet in, the more information your opponent will have about you. He'll know that you didn't have an easy decision about whether to bet. He'll see through the computer screen and know just how badly you're already hoping for a fold. He'll snap and you'll feel like an idiot. The check button is so big and pretty – why not just give up, and live to fight another day?
Is this reasoning true? Probably not, especially considering my original claim, that when people do bet after timing down, it's usually stronger. But that's not what people do, and we can take advantage of that tendency.
To boil it down...Your opponent's timing tells come from one of two things:1) How much he has to think about decisions.2) How much he wants you to think that he has to think about decisions. This might seem like a pretty frustrating explanation, that's even contradictory. How do we know when our opponent is thinking, but wants us to think that he's not thinking? But there's pretty clear examples of exactly that. Regardless of how easy the decision to continue with a trapping hand is, most players will Hollywood with it for at least a few seconds. #1 doesn't matter here, and the tell is all about #2. Some are also a combination: The quick c/c on the flop with middle pair, mediocre kicker, is both a combination of the fact that our opponent doesn't have to think about his decision (c/c is obvious), and that he wants you to think he had an easy call (don't barrel me, please!). Sometimes it's #1 and not #2 at all - a somewhat quick c-bet on a J98hhx flop tends to mean that our opponent didn't need to think about checking back, as many players will not try to be deceptive with their timing here.Does that make sense? Thoughts?
great article, ty
Nice article mers, makes sense.One of the biggest timing tells i've noticed lately at the 22's is players that routinely check/fold to cbets.Sometimes a flop will come down and instead of their usual, methodical, 1-2 second pause then check, they'll delay it to like 3-4 seconds. Every time I see it I think to myself... this is a check/raise incoming, they know I cbet a large %, and that's what he was thinking. And in 99% of cases, this is exactly what happens.The main problem I have is I don't know anything else about this time down. He could be taking a sip from a drink, a bite from some food, talking to someone IRL or a huge number of other things.I am often very confident in a read like this, but as I don't have this extra, vital piece of information (i.e. is this a REAL timing tell or some other factor) it makes me reluctant to rely on it and make a play accordingly.
Nice article mers! I was talking to Xereles about some of those timing tells. The problem is that I play on "french" websites, so the players are kinda worse. I noticed so far that when they think on flop then call, you can be sure that they have a good hand.When they c/c pretty fast, weak sd/drawing etc.
soulouri: Some players definitely have timing tells OOP on flops. Some people will snapcheck when they hit and make a standard pause when then miss. These tendencies tend to be a little less universial, but it's definitely something to look at.
What do you do to avoid giving timing tells in ST by yourself?I think in MTT for example, I can wait with every decision a decent time. But in ST the game is so fast that it would be annoying to play too slow.Should I try to randomize my timing?
Don't worry about it too much. I try to pause for a couple of seconds before every all-in decision just to not give anything away, whether or not I actually am still deciding. But really a couple of seconds is all you need.
well, it's def true... but you always think about what kind of opponent you are playing.Many players, clicks random buttons lol, so you can't really read too much in that. An educated guess is what you really need...I think you're gonna get the best of it with decent players, not good and not bad at all...
Sometimes, when im going for value and planning on overbetting/shoving, i time on river then do it. People always level themselves. Especially when a draw misses
Hey.Have some questions on this.Do you put wheigth on how quick he checks the flop or how quick he CC?Because he could be thinking for a while before he checks and that affects how fast he is gonna react to my CB, right? So the combination of thoose two confuses me. Whats the difference between (which tells which story, same for CR):long pause - fast CClong pause - long CCquick check - fast CCquick check - long CC I dont get the point that they make a fast decision to act strong, they think that by thinking longer they look weak. How does that go together: "Correctly or incorrectly, most players believe that waiting to call with marginal hands makes it seem like they were considering folding, and will cause opponents to put more pressure on them in future streets. Thus, they call more quickly, as if to say “don't try to bluff me on future streets, "So from that I asume they take longer time to with folding hands but that contradicting to this (so when can i asume they are gonna fold or checkraise?): "Sometimes a flop will come down and instead of their usual, methodical, 1-2 second pause then check, they'll delay it to like 3-4 seconds. Every time I see it I think to myself""I noticed so far that when they think on flop then call, you can be sure that they have a good hand. When they c/c pretty fast, weak sd/drawing etc." - Could it be a hand as A-high or gutshoot that doesnt know if they should call or fold?RiverCould you take some example on these two:- without a hand, people need to think about the river card and whether it's a good idea to make a bluff. It can sometimes be a spazzy move from an opponent who missed a draw, but when there are little to no missed draws in our opponent's range, these spots become very easy folds. (How do we know he didnt cc TP on a dry board and now that we check turn with MP he DB river for value)- When your opponent takes his time before making a significant bet in a spot where you are likely to have a bluffcatcher, it means they are generally stronger. (Same as above)
General trend, but quicker checks tend to be stronger than wait a second, check on the flop. After that all flop check/calls tend to be pretty weak :) The rest of your questions comes down to the fact that it isn't always true that a certain amount of time represents a certain type of hand, the situation matters. The situational differences in those quotes change things.