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jackoneill's picture
Using Nash when 15-20 BB deep

Hi,

When I look at the Nash Pushing-Ranges, then I see a lot of hands with 15-20 and the premiums even have 20+.  However, most of the instructors in the videos don't use Nash until they're a lot shallower.

To make sure I understood this correctly, is it true that

  1. If I jam / fold my Buttons according to the Nash pushing-ranges at 20 bb, then there's no way my opponent can gain an edge over me or exploit me somehow, and the optimal strategy for him is to call me with the Nash calling-range.
  2. If he deviates from the Nash calling-range, then he loses money compared to calling with the Nash range - so I'd gain an edge over him if he does that.
  3. If he deviates from the Nash calling-rangen, then I can even increase my edge over him by deviating myself from the Nash pushing-range and using a different strategy which is aimed specifically at exploiting his style.

If 1. and 2. are correct, is 3. the reason why the instructors don't jam / fold according to Nash when they're 20 bb deep - because they gain en even higher edge if their opponents aren't using Nash either ?

That'd mean that I could jam / fold my Buttons according to Nash even at 20 BB if I'm completely lost and have no idea how to play against my particular opponent - but I'd be better off not using it against most fish which I could exploit a lot better by just playing poker.

I've also some problems when I'm in the BB - is it correct that I need to call with a much tighter range if my opponent isn't shoving as wide as the Nash range suggest ?  For instance if I have 22 in the BB, that'd be a call at less than 15 BB according to Nash - but if my opponent is a Nit and only shoves QQ+ and limps the rest, then calling would be a huge mistake.

Jack

cymonguk's picture
nash is unexploitable

Basically you are right.
Just because nash is unexploitable doesn't mean its the most +ev way to win
 
I think most would play nash at <8BB unless you have specific reads.
 
Calling NASH ranges are more arguable I think

magnusnick's picture
If a player is not pushing

If a player is not pushing NASH ranges and he has around 10-13BB's left, you can see this by him not pushing often enough for it to suggest that he's using NASH in the first place then NEVER call according to NASH. You will find yourself completly crushed in 90% of the times if you do.

jackoneill's picture
Ok, that makes sense. I

Ok, that makes sense.
I think in the past, I've made a lot of mistakes of both calling way too much and also reshoving too light over my opponent's BU-opens.
I played the $33 and $55 turbo's on Full Tilt until about a month ago and I basically jam / folded my buttons starting with 20 BB because that allowed me to play 4 tables at a time, without paying attention to each of my opponents too much - my plan was basically to increase my hourly by playing many tables.  Unfortunately, I lost a lot of money in the end game - I could basically only win if I finished the match before reaching 50/100.
After that, I decided to play regular speeds at Absolute where you don't reach 25/50 very often, but now I really want to learn proper endgame play and eventually go back to playing the turbos.
Jack


jackoneill's picture
Other question: If my

Other question:
If my opponents opens a lot of buttons with either a minraise or a 3x when ~15 bb deep, is it profitable to re-shove wide over them - for instance with the Nash calling-range ?
Jack


Skates's picture
 Nash solves a jam/fold

 Nash solves a jam/fold game.  If you play Nash on your button at 15BB, villain can't improve more than playing the perfect Nash calling ranges, however, it is still a losing strategy.  IIRC, it is a break-even strategy at something like 7.8BB.  At 15BB, you would be sacrificing some equity by playing jam/fold, hence why it is not recommended.  At 10BB, most villains do not call with the Nash equilibrium range, so the equity loss is made up for.
To answer the restealing question; yes it is profitable to resteal wide vs. someone who opens a lot of buttons.  You have to play around with ranges to figure out what's best.  I will say this though..... many players at low stakes DO NOT flat at 10-15BB.  These are excellent opponents, because not having a calling range (as I believe one pretty notable HU coach suggests is best) is hyper exploitable by people like me who have done math to solve that game.  However, most people aren't like me, and at low stakes, your best bet is probably to just jam a merged range of your upper end.  The moment your villain starts limping though, you gotta do more work.