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mink21original's picture
Very tough spot,especially the river

It is a 23 turbo heads up.I am on button with Td6c.My stack is 1105,blinds 15-30 and i raise to 70 and opponent calls.The flop is 6sTh3d and opponet checks.I bet 90 to 140 pot and opponent calls.Turn is 7s.Opponent checks and i bet 210 on 320 pot and opponet calls.River is Ac.Opponent bets 150 on 740 pot and i go all in.Opponet shows 4h5h and i lose.Is it the correct play as i played or do u think i should have not shoved river?And if not what would be an alternative play at the river?

qattack's picture
The river card is bad to

The river card is bad to shove here, because the only "legitimate" hand your opponent will bet-call-a-shove with that you can beat here is 76s (or off if he is really bad) or Ax (also if he is really bad, floating OOP to two significant bets. And most likely, he would have checkraised 76 on the turn due to many terrible cards that could come on the river and ruin his hand.If he is bluffing, you will obviously beat him if you call and he will obviously fold if you shove.Besides a bluff, what are the likely hands he would call two bets with and bet out on this river? Possibly 76 (as already noted), two pair aces up whose kicker had paired the flop or turn, and 54 or 98 for a straight. And possibly a set, though he probably would have played that hand differently.The concept you need to understand here is that your opponent will be folding to your shove nearly every hand that you are beating, and call every hand that is beating you. So while calling this small bet is good, by shoving you are turning your hand into a (bad) bluff. You will almost never win the additional amount that you are shoving into this pot and have a very good chance of losing it.Therefor, you should flat call the river 100% of the time, unless your opponent totally has no clue how to play poker.

DonNew's picture
I dont think a shove is

I dont think a shove is terrible here but I think i would probably just min raise instead of flatting so you are more likely to get some value out of the Ax hands and stuff, although min raising does look strong here i admit, with so few chips left. but depends on how you view the villains competence overall, but i think there are enough bad players at the 23 level to justify this imo.

qattack's picture
DonNew, if you minraise, do

DonNew, if you minraise, do you call a shove?I have not put in any games at the $23 level since I've learned "correct" HU strategy, so if it's true that there are so many bad players at 23s, that's almost unbelievable but great to me.If half of the players at those levels are sane players, a shove of his river bet will be a loser in the long run. And I guess a sane player needs to call a minraise on the river with any piece of the board, but what is a sane player calling two streets with and betting tiny on the river with? His river bet may indicate a ten or one pair aces, but what hands would he get to the river with OOP against your substantial flop and turn bets?

mink21original's picture
I think the river tiny bet

I think the river tiny bet looks a lot like a blocking bet from something weak that does not want me to bet big,like QT,JT,9T,8T or an A that had gutter on turn like A8,A9,A4,A5.These kinds of hands that he can absolutely call all the way to the river now is obliged to call them down so i thought I was getting value some of the time.If he shoved river(probably slight overbet) would it be a crying call here?

DonNew's picture
Well i havent played enough

Well i havent played enough 23s to actually comment that much about opponents but i do think there has been alot of bad play by the villains ive met so far.When i say min raise i mean like raising his lead of 150 to maybe 250, and then i have to call if he shoves even though he then has me beat most of the time. His "blocking bet" can either be what mink describes: a weak hand that wants a cheap showdown or it can be a sign of strength and villain just hopes we shoves. But i guess what it really depends heavily on is prior history w villain. have you been c betting alot before? if so maybe hes just trying to pick a spot to play back which is good since you have a hand.. but if you think he is reasonable competent and is trying to induce a bluff then of course just flat.. folding is hard for me here. 

meatwad's picture
The argument that there are

The argument that there are alot of bad players at these limits isn't the best one I've heard for shoving.  Unless you know this particular opponent to be bad then I believe this is the incorrect decision.  Your opponent's hands fall into 4 basic categories:1 - bluffs - the shove nets us no aditional profit as he will fold - calling is best2 - better hands - this includes a bunch of hands like A6 A3 A7 AT, sets and straights - again calling is best here3 - worse hands that will call a shove - T3, 73, 63 and 67 are probably the only hands that will call a shove against an okay player.  Against a poor player you can add a few more (like weirdly played Tx hand and Ax hands) but there is no guarantee that even bad players call with these4 - worse hands that will fold - against a decent player this range is very small and probably can be discounted.Since you don't want to re-open the betting against hands that beat you and even an opponent who might bluff-shove putting you in a tough spot - I would say the best decision is to call.  You will also move more easily up the HU ladder if you learn to make sound decisions based on the specifics of a particular opponent rather then the generalities of the players at the limit as a whole.Note that if his bet represents a blocking bet as people are stipulating - then shoving does not add any value to the hand as most villians will fold their weaker hands here.  Calling is still better than shoving.MW

DonNew's picture
my main point was not that

my main point was not that because there are bad players at that level that you should shove (in fact i advocate min raise), although the overall probability of him being bad is greater than at higher levels. also it helps if you see a -19% roi on ss. instead like i said it really depends on history with villain and how your view his competency as a hu player. if bad =then min raise/shove.but i definetely see the merits of calling if readless or if you know he is competent.